Parents not available -then what? Who's legally responsible?

amother

Teal

Tue, Sep 01 2015, 1:07 am

I guess this question is theoretical because I'm afraid to upset the situation further by getting involved. but I have to wonder -

Father is abusive, drug addict, possibly criminal, never did anything that could at all be considered taking care of kids (no money, nothing) and is now nowhere to be found (possibly in prison, not even sure). Mother is mentally ill and as a result kids suffered emotional and possibly other forms of neglect as well as probable trauma (she was probably not actually abusive but they were traumatized by her mentally ill behavior). Mother's mother is a slippery subject, she is very abusive and also seems ill to those who know her closely but can put on a very good front and can be controlling in this way (very convincing.) Father's family are similarly wacko (I don't even think they're ill. I think they're just horrible twisted abusive people. But I can't say for sure.) but they live in a different country far away so hopefully are not a factor here.

After living with her abusive mother, the mother of the family in question had a breakdown and was taken to a mental hospital where she is currently refusing treatment (she has always refused treatment, we just held out hope that maybe this would be a turning point... maybe they are more persuasive in the hospital... whatever. Not.) and it's anyone's guess how long they'll keep her there like that. Meanwhile a kind (and very stressed out) relative took in the young children.

My question is this: She can't do anything with the children because she isn't their legal guardian. Can't register them in school or for medical care or anything. How does this work? Who is legally responsible for these children while their father is out of the picture and their mother is in the hospital? Presumably when they took the mother into the hospital, they were aware that she is a mother of young children, no? So why does there not seem to be any caseworker working on the question of what should happen to these kids who have been through heck, and how can we prevent them from going back to heck again? Only the one kind relative wringing her hands worrying what's going to be when they release the mom, doing her best to build up these kids but knowing it can't last. What is supposed to happen now?

I would love to just call Ohel myself and let them know that there is a family with a situation here and can they please get involved. But I am afraid to rock the boat... maybe the relative who has the kids has some advocacy already going on that I don't know about. But it seems to me that she is just really really overwhelmed (even though she seems to be doing a great job - I visited briefly while dropping off some clothes and toys, and the kids look so clean and happy...) trying to do everything to take care of the kids and keep tabs on the mom in the hospital (whose own mother is still hounding her there, encouraging her not to cooperate with treatment....grrrr.... but I'd be very very very afraid of her somehow convincing people with power that she should be the kids' guardian)

What is supposed to happen?!

MagentaYenta

Tue, Sep 01 2015, 1:13 am

In most states they could be wards of the court or have a court appointed guardian. Someone would have had to start a proceeding to declare her unfit. It could be the state or an interested party.

out-of-towner

Tue, Sep 01 2015, 1:15 am

For the children's sake, please do call Ohel or ACS. They will not tell the family who reported the case, and their ultimate goal is the safety and security of the children.

little_mage

Tue, Sep 01 2015, 6:05 am

Jewish Family and Children's services might also be able to help.

amother

Aubergine

Tue, Sep 01 2015, 6:43 am

Boro Park Bikkur Cholim has a program where they will send social work interns into the homes and work with the families. You can refer this family anonymously to Bikkur Cholim and they will take care of the rest. 718-438-2020

mummiedearest

Tue, Sep 01 2015, 8:37 am

op, what boat are you afraid to rock? you can visit this relative with stuff for the kids, but you can't ask what the situation is and if the relative needs help? offer to go with her to consult a lawyer or watch the kids so she can go by herself. this needs to be taken care of legally. if the grandma is controlling, you can bet she has the ability to make legal trouble for the other relative just for having the kids at her house. she can call it kidnapping and make a big stink about it. she can also get the relative in trouble for "keeping the kids out of school."

approaching your well-meaning relative would not be rocking the boat, it would be supporting her. so do it.

amother

Slateblue

Tue, Sep 01 2015, 9:10 am

Are you in NY.
I just was reading about Homes with a Heart. I believe they work on temporary placement of children who are in a hard living situation. It is under the Bikur Cholim umbrella.
I think the article said that NY child services is so overwhelmed right now they can't deal with all cases properly.
Its not real fostering, because there is no money paid, but it is done legally to prevent the host families from being accused of kidnapping, etc.

Perhaps you can contact them, and they can advise you.

Stars

Tue, Sep 01 2015, 10:38 am

You have an obligation to report this.

(There was a kol kora wasn't there?)

MrsDash

Tue, Sep 01 2015, 10:47 am

Stars wrote:

You have an obligation to report this.

(There was a kol kora wasn't there?)

In most US states, it's the law that ANY adult is considered a mandated reporter, regardless of your job.

sourstix

Tue, Sep 01 2015, 11:08 am

realize it, the the grandmother as controlling as she is she still didnt call anyone on the people taking care of those kids. and why may I ask arent the kids by her? is she the type to call authorities and create sucha mess? if she isnt there is nothing to be afraid of her. but the kids need security. whoever the relative is trying to do whatever she can. its a good idea to have a chat with her and hear what she has to say. I wouldnt be afraid of the grandmother she hasnt done anything till now she wont. its so sad for these kids.

sourstix

Tue, Sep 01 2015, 11:12 am

the grandmother can be as controlling as she wants. is she filthy rich and a mean spirited person? do you know her well that she would do this kind of stink? my mother is a controlling person but wouldnt do this. you need to know who you are dealing with. thats step number one.

sourstix

Tue, Sep 01 2015, 11:14 am

you need to think logically. and know your cards. perhaps have a chat with the grandmother about the situation. and see where she is headed. you will gain alot. she might just pour her heart out. just listen to her. ask her what she thinks is good for the kids. and if that doesnt happen what would or could she do to make it happen? ask if shes ok with the kids where they are? see what her path of thinking is. you will know what your next step is.

mummiedearest

Tue, Sep 01 2015, 11:34 am

sourstix, I would NOT involve the grandmother if she's known to be controlling and abusive. she may not have put up a fuss yet, likely because she's only too happy to have someone else deal with the kids right now. that doesn't mean she won't raise a fuss the second she gets wind of a legal move to gain custody of them. having the mom declared incompetent and having the grandma declared unfit will cause a stir in a family like that. best to leave grandma out of it and start the legal process as quietly as possible. at least find out what the process is and how to do it before bringing it up.

singleagain

Tue, Sep 01 2015, 12:17 pm

Have an in at Ohel, was told: ACS has to be contacted before Ohel gets involved, unless you can convince the mom to bring the kids in for services.

amother

Teal

Tue, Sep 01 2015, 4:51 pm

Regarding reporting/rocking the boat, it's complicated. These people have been known to run in the past. If it is handled wrong, like if they get wind that ACS is on their case but action doesn't happen swiftly enough, they will just disappear until the next episode. Or "grandma" might go off on someone, I don't know. It's easy to say I have an obligation to report it, but there is no evidence to speak of and I worry that if it goes to ACS they might place the kids with the grandmother who manages to look very normal on the outside. She cares about her reputation but not her children.

The grandmother doesn't give a $#%& about these kids or their mother. They were staying in her home only because the house is owned by someone else who threatened her not to put them out on the street. But she made them miserable, a shelter would have been better.

I highly doubt bikur cholim can do anything without the parent's consent, and the parent is a paranoid person who will never consent to anything.

If I thought the kids were in danger right now today, then I would certainly call ACS to intervene. But right now they are with a caring, loving, competent relative, so we have a little time (not much, nobody knows when mom will return) to try for some strategy. So I'm asking if there's any legal route that is more direct than making a neglect report to ACS. You say "start the legal process as quietly as possible" well what does that mean and who can tell me? I called Ohel and they did not have any legal advice, as someone else above said they take on cases that have already been through ACS (like if ACS says they need a foster home, Ohel will do the placement)

mummiedearest

Tue, Sep 01 2015, 5:39 pm

you'd need to call a lawyer who specializes in custody cases and ask all about the legal process. start by talking to a lawyer, not the grandmother or mother. the woman who is currently watching the kids needs to be the one asking questions, but you can come as support if she wants you to. come with a written list of details about the kids' family, situation, etc.

while they may not be in the kind of danger they used to be in, the "foster mother" not being able to take them for medical care is a huge issue. also, the longer you take to make a case, the more likely the mom will come back and claim them. this needed to be dealt with the second the kids moved house.

amother

Teal

Tue, Sep 01 2015, 6:22 pm

So I actually did call ACS and spent like an hour on the phone with them and in the end they said there was not enough evidence of harm to the children to open a case. They said emotional/verbal abuse only "counts" if there is evidence the children were harmed. I said if a psychologist evaluated the kids they might find harm, but I'm just a friend, not qualified to diagnose anything! So they said nothing you can do then. Confused

But they did have a couple of ideas for me. They said I could call the hospital where the mother is and tell them the story - they can't talk to me but they can listen to me and maybe my information will help them know what to ask the mother, and maybe she would have enough details to add to make a case (even though she wouldn't do this willingly.)

They also said that family court works differently than ACS so if the relative wants to open a custody case that could still work even if an ACS case won't.

amother

Aubergine

Tue, Sep 01 2015, 8:16 pm

Bikkur Cholim has incentives for parents such as free cleaning help before certain yamim tovim, free supplies for kids going to camp in the summer, etc. I think it may vary from year to year but parents usually can't resist the incentives so they agree to sign up for the program. They also are trained to deal with parents who need the help but are either in denial about it or are resistant. You can try calling them and see if they can help.

marina

Tue, Sep 01 2015, 10:12 pm

your relative may want to look into Kinship Fosterparenting because she may get paid. http://www.nyc.gov/html/caregi......html

out-of-towner

Tue, Sep 01 2015, 10:24 pm

amother wrote:

But they did have a couple e of ideas for me. They said I could call the hospital where the mother is and tell them the story - they can't talk to me but they can listen to me and maybe my information will help them know what to ask the mother, and maybe she would have enough details to add to make a case (even though she wouldn't do this willingly.)

They also said that family court works differently than ACS so if the relative wants to open a custody case that could still work even if an ACS case won't.

From the perspective of an MSW student, calling the hospital social work office could be very helpful. Let them know your concerns and they will follow up by visiting the mother and seeing where she is at vis a vis Her kids. They may be able to help start the process of anything, or at least provide evidence for the grounds of an ACS case.