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Forum -> Chinuch, Education & Schooling

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naturalmom5

Fri, Sep 18 2015, 12:19 am

I meant that when I was becoming frum I only saw wonderful people on Shabbos and wasn't exposed to any of the meeyus ness

Emotional

Fri, Sep 18 2015, 12:45 am

naturalmom5 wrote:

I meant that when I was becoming frum I only saw wonderful people on Shabbos and wasn't exposed to any of the meeyus ness

When it comes to a topic like Lakewood schools, I wish I could sit in the company of baalei teshuvah like yourself and become re-acquainted with authentic yiddishkeit.
If I make any sense - forgive me, the hour is late😃

sky

Fri, Sep 18 2015, 2:18 pm

Mama Bear wrote:

This is mamish unbelievable to read... why the need for so many schools? There should be 4-5 large schools, each catering to a different crowd (working, learning, yeshivish, chasidish, balabatish)... it must be really interesting when the girls get together on the block or at a chasuneh, you can have 25 neighbors in 25 different schools...

Kiryas Yoel only has 3 girls' schools, and Williamsburg has about 10. I cant imagine 25-30 schools in one community!

There are schools in Lakewood with 11 parallel classes (I believe that is the largest, but there are others with 6 I believe). I didn't want that for my daughter. I went to a much smaller school and liked that and I really wanted her to go a smaller school. I don't believe a large school is for everyone.

And even if schools have labels not everyone wants to send their daughter to a school whose label they fit under, a different school might be a much better fit for the child.

Another interesting thing about many of these schools are that almost all of them were started in the past 15 years. They are almost all new schools. I'm assuming most of the schools in the communities you mentioned have been around 25+ years and have had time to to establish themselves and grow at a steady pace over the years. 25 years ago in Lakewood there were maybe 3-4 small schools.

debsey

Fri, Sep 18 2015, 4:48 pm

My take on how all the schools choose a "type" and then stick to it is that Lakewood is so big, it becomes very small. Once a school has chosen a target demographic to cater to, it's wise for the school and the parent body to stick fairly close to that demographic. If a school has decided to be "yeshivish" then they're best off accepting mainly children whose families fit that demographic. This cuts down on power struggles, on divisiveness within classes, and allows the school to focus on its main mission- educating the children.

For example, if a school is more "open-minded" and they have no problem with kids watching kosher videos, they're better off not accepting a critical number of super-yeshivishe families, because there are going to be power struggles - Malky can't play with Chanie because Malky's mommy doesn't let her go to houses where they watch videos. Now, let's say Malky is the most popular girl in the class - see the potential for problems? So much easier if all the "Chanie"s go to one school, and all the "Malky"s go to another. Then the school has time and energy to focus on things like actual effective education.

Remember that every time you rebuke a child or parent, you are damaging that relationship. So if a very yeshivishe school accepts a girl whose father is working AND the family doesn't follow the school guidelines, the school has to intervene. So, if a super yeshivish school doesn't allow brand-name boots, and then a child shows up in them, the school has to deal with it - the other parents will be upset, because the bar is being raised for their children. The individual child and parents must be dealt with - which risks the relationship. It's much more efficient to have a school where most parents share most of the basic assumptions about level of materialism, level of exposure to outside influences, amount of Hebrew/Yiddish/English used in the classroom, etc. Why should a school spend a lot of time enforcing the things that this school considers "basic assumptions?" There's plenty of other places for the schools to put their energies and focus.

Does that mean that people are sometimes unfairly pigeonholed? Of course. Schools are dealing with large numbers of applicants, and they have to go with what's "statistically likely" to be associated. It would be great if the schools had the time, energy, and resources to fully investigate each child who applies and figure out if that child is a good fit, but the fact is, resources are limited. The world isn't perfect, and it's not populated by perfect people.......

amother

Cyan

Fri, Sep 18 2015, 5:52 pm

Lakewooder here,

sorry but the way you explain it sounds divisive.

My kid can't go to school with someone elses because that someone wears expensive brand name boots?

Why? Is there a different Torah for rich people?

If someone is an accountant, our children can't be chavrusah's because I may allow my kids to read non jewish books and the accountant doesn't?

and what I do is the school's problem because...?

Another kids parents will be upset?
The "malky's" of the world will have to learn that its nice to be important and popular but more important to be nice?

Sorry I dont buy it

cnc

Fri, Sep 18 2015, 6:01 pm

I get debsey' s point but I think there is entirely different issue.

All the schools that were started for Chanies turned into schools for Malkys.

amother

Taupe

Fri, Sep 18 2015, 6:05 pm

debsey wrote:

For example, if a school is more "open-minded" and they have no problem with kids watching kosher videos, they're better off not accepting a critical number of super-yeshivishe families, because there are going to be power struggles - Malky can't play with Chanie because Malky's mommy doesn't let her go to houses where they watch videos........

See, why is it that "frum" and "yeshivish" have come to mean a tremendous emphasis on "סור מרע" (with ever expanding borders that include what constitutes "רע") and nobody seems concerned with "עשה טוב"?
Fifteen years ago how many people wouldn't let their kids go to someone's house because that someone sometimes puts on Uncle Moishy or Mitzvah Boulevard?
And what if that someone has a chronic health condition and a special-needs child, and six kids under five? And an Uncle Moishy video is the only way she can go to the bathroom?
Oh, no.... can't play at their house. Dangerous influences there.
Meanwhile my neighbor down the block sends her girls to one of the "hardest to get into" schools here in Lakewood. She regularly buys skirts for her pre-teens that barely skim the knee. If it reaches that far.
Go figure.

Mama Bear

Fri, Sep 18 2015, 6:29 pm

Sky, my point is, that instead of telling people that they have no room, the schools should expand. add more classes. get a bigger building. There shouldnt be a need for five new schools to open every September. Ten existing schools should be able to add an additional primary / 9th grade class every year, thus eliminating the need for five new schools every september.

mommyla

Sat, Sep 19 2015, 9:40 pm

Mama Bear wrote:

But Sky's point, and many other parents' point, is to send to schools that aren't so huge and impersonal. I'd much rather send my kids to a school with 3 classes tops than one with 11 classes per grade. (And I do! But no girls in school yet...)

amother

Apricot

Sat, Sep 19 2015, 9:42 pm

For chasidish people moving from bp what are the schools to look into? Like tomer divora, satmer, pupa any chasidish schools or if there isn't where do those kind of people send to?

amother

Mauve

Sat, Sep 19 2015, 9:50 pm

Bais Faiga had ten parallel classes and Bais Tova has five and Bais rivka Rochel has four. Most other schools have three or four parallel classes.

Bais tovas parents were upset that they went up to five and they promised the parents not to go higher. It's been six years and they are staying at five. Five parallel classes is a lot.

amother

Cobalt

Sat, Sep 19 2015, 10:16 pm

amother wrote:

For chasidish people moving from bp what are the schools to look into? Like tomer divora, satmer, pupa any chasidish schools or if there isn't where do those kind of people send to?

Bnos bina, Tiferes Chaya, Bais Rochel and Kesser Bais Yaakov. Bnos Bina is probably the most chassidish. I think that Vitzhnitz also has a girls school, very "chinyuked". I'm not sure how organized it is. I don't know anyone who sends there.

Notsobusy

Sat, Sep 19 2015, 10:28 pm

amother wrote:

Exactly, this is a huge problem with chinuch in Lakewood today. Not that long ago everyone in Lakewood went to the same school. I have friends who went to Bais Kaila who say how they were all friends, from the more modern girls to the few chassidim. And it wasn't only Lakewood, most of our parents and grandparents in America were in mixed environments, and a lot of the time the less frum became more frum, instead of what everyone's scared of, that their precious child will be influenced by her less frum friend. Especially when you consider that in Lakewood elementary schools "less frum" means very little, here even the "less frum" people are quite frum.

nylon

Sat, Sep 19 2015, 10:54 pm

When you have many parallel classes per grade then you start stacking on layers of administration, which is already a problem in yeshivas. Running a school with 10 parallel classes is an art that few administrators will manage.

In public schools they almost never have 10 classes per grade, and they don't go all the way from nursery to 8th grade.

Having more schools isn't a bad solution, the problem is that Lakewood is growing too rapidly for this to be done well. If they all added more classes it would still be a mess; buildings take time to be built and pell mell expansion means growing pains. But every time I hear about Lakewood, the problem seems to be that the ideal of different schools for different types winds up not being met. Yeshivish versus chassidish, yes. But when schools are perceived as more or less frum, then the less frum schools are afraid they will be perceived as lesser or bummy, and start upping the standard so people don't think that. And the more schools there are, the smaller the niches get because the schools are competing (sort of, given the shortage of places) and you can't advertise that Bais Devora is really very much like Bais Miriam but on the other side of town. Even if it's true because the schools are really attracting the same crowd but there are too many kids for one school.

LiLIsraeli

Sat, Sep 19 2015, 11:07 pm

amother wrote:

Vizhnitz school is called Bas Yisroel, I think.

amother

Navy

Mon, Sep 21 2015, 10:33 pm

Hi I'm the op, I'm considering to apply to Bnos Devorah, Bnos Esther Malka and Meoros Bais Yaakov. Does anyone have any suggestions of a fourth school that is a similar type? Tia!

12rivkyk34

Sun, Oct 11 2015, 11:35 pm

OP, I would say Bnos Orchos Chaim fits into that type as does Chein Bais Yaaokv(Rebbetzin Zemba's school). Bnos Yaakov too although they say there aren't many slots these days.
Good Luck!!!

amother

Cyan

Mon, Oct 12 2015, 1:01 am

OP - those schools are not exactly the same type. ???

But Bnos Orchos CHaim is pretty pareve middle of the road, if that's what you are looking for.

Keep in mind that all the schools are good.

amother

Denim

Mon, Oct 12 2015, 1:22 am

amother wrote:

Hi I'm the op, I'm considering to apply to Bnos Devorah, Bnos Esther Malka and Meoros Bais Yaakov. Does anyone have any suggestions of a fourth school that is a similar type? Tia!

Nachlas Bais Yaakov

amother

Navy

Mon, Oct 12 2015, 10:06 am

Denim do you send to Nachlas Bais Yaakov? What do you know about it? Thanks!

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