Spinoff: friend/neighbor in mixed OTD/frum marriage

amother

Seashell

Fri, Oct 02 2015, 1:19 am

There is a family in my neighborhood like some described in the DH OTD thread - the father/husband is not frum (not secret) and the mother is frum (more modern than my family but I don't think I'd have the following issue if they were both like that.) They send their kids to the frum schools in the community and have one child in my child's class. My child gets along well with theirs. We have had her over at our house a few times. She is sweet, has lovely middos, and is a great kid whom I would love for my DD to have as a friend.

But I'm worried about the home situation, especially because it seems the father is very often the one in charge of the kids (mother works irregular hours, he is the one picking little kids up from the schoolbus, I see him with them around town much more than her). The girl keeps inviting my DD to her home, at first I just evaded the invitations but it's getting very awkward, both my DD and the friend want it and are unhappy that she has been to us but DD hasn't been to her. It's getting awkward with the mom also, I tried simply saying it's better if she comes here (a couple of times I tried an excuse like nobody will be available to drop off/pick up DD...) but she was just as firm and I can understand that too, if I were the mom I'd be kind of uncomfortable with my child going to a friend who never comes to us. But my child is very young and I don't feel safe letting her go to a home where I'm not sure what the frumkeit situation is.

On the other hand I also feel so bad for this little girl, why should she suffer because of her parent's choice, and not have friends coming to her house? I don't want her to feel rejected. Again, she is a wonderful kid, it's just the father I worry about. I don't want to cause pain to the mother either. I thought I could get around it by inviting her here but it seems it is a really big deal to both the girl and the parents - this is my oldest so I'm not familiar with the etiquette of these things.

I also find this very difficult from a shmiras halashon perspective. On one hand you're not supposed to listen to lashon hara, on the other hand when someone is saying that your child's friend's parent is mechalel shabbos and eating non-kosher and sometimes even involving his young children in same, well I kind of want to know that. I also would like more details to help me make my choices of how to handle this, but how do you get this info without being gossipy? Sad

amother

Babyblue

Fri, Oct 02 2015, 1:47 am

My best friend to this day comes from a family like this - father not religious, mother BT. They're the sweetest couple and great parents. I wouldn't have a problem sending DD to such a home.
BUT that's because I know the situation- the father doesn't keep anything but is respectful. Would never feed the children something that isn't kosher etc .
If you have reason to suspect that the father might not be respectful then you should be worried but otherwise - if the paremts and kid seem to be good people- I would send Dd.

amother

Seashell

Fri, Oct 02 2015, 1:51 am

No, the mom definitely knows where her husband is holding. Like I said, it seems to be public knowledge. They have obviously chosen to raise their kids frum inasmuch as they send them to frum schools, participate with the frum community, etc. They are nice people overall. I just have qualms about sending a very young child to a home where the parents, particularly the parent who is usually caring for the children, does not share my values. And I'm not sure how to handle that while still allowing/encouraging friendship with the children.

When my child is older I think I'd feel more comfortable trusting that if she sees or hears anything of concern she would tell me about it and we could discuss it. Or if people are doing things that we don't do she would hopefully be able to not join. But I am talking about young children here so I'm not so sure.

amother

Seashell

Fri, Oct 02 2015, 1:56 am

They seem to be good people but the "grapevine" told me that he has been seen taking his kids in the car on shabbos and going to nonkosher eateries with them (to eat.) I am not going to believe it as lashon hara but I do think it warrants caution. He may seem like a mentch but if these things are acceptable for his children how do I know he wouldn't do for mine as well? Or even if he won't actually feed my kid trief (which again I have no way of knowing if my young child who doesn't know how to read enough to tell an OR from an OU) I am concerned that it would be confusing to my child if she goes to her ostensibly frum friend's house and the father is watching TV on Shabbos. I know these are not unanswerable questions if you need to, but I'm not sure it's the best idea to bring it up in the first place.

chani8

Fri, Oct 02 2015, 2:41 am

The grapevine is meant to use l'toeles, meaning, you need to take precautions.

What are your options here?
To me, the only option is supervision, especially since you say your child is young.

Just so you know, I am an uptight parent who does not allow my child to go to friends' homes. Kids can come play by us. I really dont care that the other child and her parents might find that unfair or annoying. I dont care if they stop allowing their child to come to me.

Would you risk your child's kashrus because you want to be nice??

marina

Fri, Oct 02 2015, 3:04 am

These threads always annoy me.

1. Kashrus: The father is not going to take your kids to a treife place. Just like he wouldn't feed them peanuts, knowing they are allergic to them.That's because OTD people didn't leave their honesty and integrity behind when they walked out the door.

Quote:

He may seem like a mentch but if these things are acceptable for his children how do I know he wouldn't do for mine as well?

If cholov stam is acceptable for your child, are you going to automatically serve it to all of your child's playmates? If sugary snacks are acceptable for your child, are you going to automatically serve junk food to all of your child's playmates?

2. Shabbos: Don't send over on shabbos just yet, but do invite them over and do get to know them better so you can eventually figure out what shabbos is like in their home. There are 6 other days left.

3. Values:

Quote:

I just have qualms about sending a very young child to a home where the parents, particularly the parent who is usually caring for the children, does not share my values

.

If the father is a criminal or just morally bankrupt, then perhaps he doesn't share your values globally. If he drives on shabbos, he doesn't share one value: shabbos. If he also doesn't eat kosher, then he doesn't share two values: Shabbos and Kashrus. Presumably your values include more than just those two.

amother

Turquoise

Fri, Oct 02 2015, 8:55 am

I'm older than everyone here. When I was growing up I had a friend like this. But the mother wouldn't have let the kids be mechalel Shabbos. The father spent Shabbos in his mancave doing whatever he wanted but wouldn't do anything in front of the kids or guests. Ultimately he became shomer Shabbos. It was different because they weren't OTD, just not FFB. The mother schlepped the family along.
Their house was the place for everyone on Shabbos. It was really really nice. I like what Marina said. If the father is a mensch and you can set guidelines you might let your kids play there during the week. That's what I did with my kids and neighbors who are incredible good kind people but I think only nominally Orthodox so I couldn't trust kashrus.

ohmygosh

Fri, Oct 02 2015, 9:13 am

Quote:

They seem to be good people but the "grapevine" told me that he has been seen taking his kids in the car on shabbos and going to nonkosher eateries with them (to eat.)

You say they are choosing to raise their kids frum. Then you say you have heard that he blatantly ignores that and does some things with his kids that are against the basic tenets of Judiasm. No, I would not send my kid there. Your job as a mother is to protect your child as you see fit. Don't worry about being nice or not. That's not your priority.

amother

Cyan

Fri, Oct 02 2015, 10:43 am

It is hard because the father is the care giver. My father wasn't around much growing up except Shabbos. We knew he ate treif outside the house. He was yeshivah educated and the son of a Rabbi. Half my siblings are now OTD. When the treif option is acceptable for the parent then the children often follow. One of my siblings pulled a best friend OTD. Maybe the friend would be OTD anyway but this made it easier.

I wouldn't let DD go. I have friends who knows I am on the internet and they never let their children in my house unsupervised although we my children were welcome in their house anytime. I keep my computer in a locked office. I never took offense or pushed this issue.

This mom knows why you don't let your daughter go there. She is testing you. I wouldn't have a conversation about this.

amother

Oak

Fri, Oct 02 2015, 11:01 am

Your job is to do what is best for your daughter. I am sure the mother is aware due to her unusual marriage that some people will not allow their children their unsupervised.

Is the child and the wife in an unfair position? Yes but you did not make the choice to put them there. Your job is to raise your child as you see fit and of course try to be as nice, polite, respectful etc to this family.

Now I had an Aunt who was not frum and I was allowed to go to her apartment but my parents were very clear to me that she was not frum and things that she did were wrong (I did go with an older sister so I was supervised). She did not influence me. However one incident comes to my mind. I was by grandmothers house on Pesach and by accident I took out silverware from the Chametz draw and used it. I was quite upset and my Aunt said to me who cares. I was so angry at her after she made that comment and lost a lot of respect for her after that.

amother

Azure

Fri, Oct 02 2015, 11:27 am

I wonder if I'm the friend. I'm more modern ortho, while my husband is openly non-religious. My dc gets invited to her friends, while her friends rarely come to us. But because of mine and my husband's knowledge of Judaism and kosher, we would never serve non kosher to any friends. We even use paper goods. And anything dairy is cholov yisroel. It's kind of comical that some religious folks think that if they send their kids to us we'll take that opportunity to feed them pork chops and bacon.

geulah papyrus

Fri, Oct 02 2015, 11:31 am

It is ultimately your choice as to whether or not you should let your child go or not--personally, I would have no problem allowing my child to play at this family's home, but we're all different and come from different places. However, I would be concerned about how you explain this to your child. Children can be very perceptive and might want to know why you are not allowing them to get together at the house of a friend. Please be careful as to how you frame this. You don't want to make the other kid's parents look like bad people, and you don't want your child to think that she is better than them, or to feel pity, or worse--to ultimately turn this into a way to make the other child feel bad. Different families do different things. It might be a good idea to explain that just because they do things differently, doesn't make those things wrong for that family.