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S/o of having less kids...
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The Happy Wife




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 07 2015, 3:33 pm
amother wrote:
I would never dream of asking for or accepting charity, I was simply responding to the posts about Lakewood families and tuition. Ideally dh would get a better paying job but until that happens the school doesn't want to stick it out. I can't blame them. They need the money to pay their teachers and staff and I understand that. Meanwhile our ship is sinking and time is running out.


Why would you never dream of asking for or accepting charity? That's what it's for, to help people who are struggling.
I hope your situation improves very soon. Hug
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SRS




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 07 2015, 3:42 pm
amother wrote:
My heart hurts reading your post. You cannot imagine what our family is going through right now. We send to a fine, upstanding school in Lakewood and the tuition burden is killing us. We are middle class so we don't qualify for government programs (B"H) and we are not meeting our tuition obligations. DH borrowed 10K this summer because the school wouldn't send my kids admission cards. He does not sleep at night. We are in the process of selling our house, even though the monthly mortgage amount still won't cover the tuition fully. You cannot imagine how humiliating it is to be called and yelled at regularly. My DH told me he feels like he's choking. The tuition situation is destroying our marriage. Ultimately I know it is only a matter of time that we will be told to keep our kids home. They gave us an ultimatum to pay up but there's no way we can meet that. I just pray my kids don't realize why they are home when that happens.


My sympathies. And a bit of unsolicited advice. Please do not dig yourself into a hole you cannot dig out of to extend the inevitable. You state the kids will end up home and you don't want them to realize why. Why not embrace the inevitable and make a decision to stay home from a place a strength? Easier said than done, I know. But your marriage and your husband's ability to function is more important than what any yeshiva can offer.
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SRS




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 07 2015, 4:10 pm
Laiya wrote:
This is disingenuous, because, if all non-public school students were to enroll in their local public schools, the schools would be unable to handle them.


Just because something is repeated incessantly for many years on end doesn't make it true. #1, there will always be private schools with parents willing to pay tuition. So there will never be a case of every private school parent enrolling in public school. #2 Schools have dealt with demographic changes. The baby boomers had schools to go to and because of shrinking and changing demographics, many districts have more school than student body.
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SRS




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 07 2015, 4:20 pm
Laiya wrote:
We're not Catholic schools, where if you can't pay, you can't send.

This is a heartbreaking post Sad


The Catholic model is actually a very good model in many aspects. There are pricey Catholic prep-schools that operate mostly independently, lower cost diocese schools which are part of a network, and even "free" Catholic high schools which are schools partnered with industry where the tuition is paid by the corporate partners and the students work for the corporate partner to pay for their education.

No, you can't just send without paying. But the costs are held down enough that a family in my neighborhood could send 4 or more children to the most local Catholic school for LESS than the cost of sending 2 children to the local yeshiva school.
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Laiya




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 07 2015, 4:38 pm
SRS wrote:
Just because something is repeated incessantly for many years on end doesn't make it true. #1, there will always be private schools with parents willing to pay tuition. So there will never be a case of every private school parent enrolling in public school. #2 Schools have dealt with demographic changes. The baby boomers had schools to go to and because of shrinking and changing demographics, many districts have more school than student body.


I didn't mean, we should convince parents to send their kids to public school. Rather, as a form of political demonstration, to enroll and send for a short period. Perhaps over the long term public schools can absorb increased enrollment, but for enrollment to increase by x% over the course of one summer, without equivalent funding increases, can't not cause issues.
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Laiya




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 07 2015, 4:43 pm
SRS wrote:
The Catholic model is actually a very good model in many aspects. There are pricey Catholic prep-schools that operate mostly independently, lower cost diocese schools which are part of a network, and even "free" Catholic high schools which are schools partnered with industry where the tuition is paid by the corporate partners and the students work for the corporate partner to pay for their education.

No, you can't just send without paying. But the costs are held down enough that a family in my neighborhood could send 4 or more children to the most local Catholic school for LESS than the cost of sending 2 children to the local yeshiva school.


This sounds good, but the problem is that frum society is spread too thin. It would be great if organizations purporting to represent orthodox Jewry like the Agudah, OU, RCA, etc. had central fundraising campaigns where the money raised was distributed to yeshivas. But there are so many causes, and people prefer to give locally, and directly, to the causes they choose.

(Re Catholic schools--at the end of the day, their tuition may be cheaper, but if a family can't pay, they can't send.)
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5mom




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 07 2015, 4:51 pm
Laiya wrote:
This is disingenuous, because, if all non-public school students were to enroll in their local public schools, the schools would be unable to handle them.

Tax policy is set by the politicians that we, the tax payers, elect. So I'm not really sure what your argument here is.

When someone says that they can't afford yeshiva tuition, what they're actually saying is that, after accounting for taxes--which can approach 40% of their income, and which is used, in part, to pay for the education of other people's children--they can't afford tuition.


Do you really not get it?

If the student population grows, taxes will rise to meet the new needs. Teachers, buildings, etc all cost money.

You also don't seem to have any idea of how much, or how little, of your tax bill goes to the local school board.

And thanks, I know who passes budgets. I was trying to explain that money is fungible. Whether it comes as a tax credit or a rebate is irrelevant.
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LittleDucky




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 07 2015, 5:14 pm
Laiya wrote:
This sounds good, but the problem is that frum society is spread too thin. It would be great if organizations purporting to represent orthodox Jewry like the Agudah, OU, RCA, etc. had central fundraising campaigns where the money raised was distributed to yeshivas. But there are so many causes, and people prefer to give locally, and directly, to the causes they choose.

(Re Catholic schools--at the end of the day, their tuition may be cheaper, but if a family can't pay, they can't send.)


I think there are several big differences between the two private religious school systems of Frum and catholic. (Btw, they tried the "threaten to go to public school to get $$" and it semi-worked. But our yeshivos get those same benefits now. Money for attendance and textbooks... But the government said that was the max and they meant it. It wont work again. They can't legally give the money wanted but they could give for those things the government forces them to do. Like attendance...)

But back to my main idea.
1. Our schools are fragmented. Slight differences in hashkafa on the grand scheme of things that stop us from making split offs for cost reasons. They are more unified. So instead of having BY of X and BY of Y, they have "wealthy and full of latest tech expensive school" and "minimalist cost education without frills".

2. Shidduchim. No one will send to cheaper schools that are known for being cheap. They don't have this system- they go off to college and find their own spouses. What preschool you went to doesn't play a part in this.
3. Many schools dont believe in secular education or advanced skills. So how will they work for companies? I think it would be great experience- computers class can be about designing flyers for businesses: real world experience, better job prospects later on etc. but again, many schools even to make tuition cheaper will not go this route. Every boy must be in learning, every girl will be a teacher.
Hmm.
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SRS




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 07 2015, 5:15 pm
Laiya wrote:
I didn't mean, we should convince parents to send their kids to public school. Rather, as a form of political demonstration, to enroll and send for a short period. Perhaps over the long term public schools can absorb increased enrollment, but for enrollment to increase by x% over the course of one summer, without equivalent funding increases, can't not cause issues.


I've heard this for years. Let's dump all our kids and they will run to fund private schools (just like that)! Yes, schools would have to find a way to accommodate all enrollees because they are legally obligated to take all students, unlike private schools that can say, sorry there is no room. Yes, in some locales, there will be disruption, perhaps even severe disruption, sending salaried teachers and other employees into a frenzy to accommodate. But the district will accommodate because they most accommodate.

And then what happens? It is a rather large assumption that each private school parent will pull their child from public school at month 3, 4, or 5 because askan said jump. Some will not pull their child because it isn't a good idea at that point. Others might enjoy the fiscal breathing room. Still others might find out they really enjoyed what the public school was offering. Meanwhile, the fixed costs of the private schools remain and now there are teachers sweating out their unemployment period.

And what goodwill is gained with those who can influence the fight for school choice (which is at an all time high in the age of common core)? Remember that those teachers and employees that will work to make the accommodation are voters. So are the parents of fellow students who will see their children possibly moved to a different school to make room or put on an alternative schedule to make room. And if a school has to hire more staff to accommodate more students, there could be mid-year job losses. So what goodwill is gained with the teachers unions that already fight tooth and nail against vouchers? So what is gained with the taxpayers who had a dirty trick played on them?

Frankly, if the school choice movement gains favor, it will be because there are noticeable anecdotal and measurable improvements in character and education via charter and private schools in places were school choice has gained a foothold. I'm waiting to see how the Nevada experiment will pan out.
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SRS




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 07 2015, 5:28 pm
Laiya wrote:

(Re Catholic schools--at the end of the day, their tuition may be cheaper, but if a family can't pay, they can't send.)


I think we face a much worse fate if the schools continue to rely on fewer and fewer parents to pay in full.
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amother
Green


 

Post Thu, Oct 08 2015, 11:47 pm
saw50st8 wrote:
I'm sure you are donating every spare penny to the cause. You sold your engagement ring, your silver candle sticks and everything of value so a child can go to yeshiva right?


I know you weren't responding to me but I think it's necessary for amothers reading this to know that there are people that are struggling terribly but will do anything to keep their children in yeshiva even if it means going hungry some nights. The total worth of all the pieces in my silver cabinet covered only 3/4 of that month's tuition bill (silver is very low now) but we took what they offered and paid the school. Right now my diamond ring is at the jeweler waiting to be appraised this week. We're davening that it will cover at least a month or two.
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justforfun87




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Oct 09 2015, 1:14 am
amother wrote:
I know you weren't responding to me but I think it's necessary for amothers reading this to know that there are people that are struggling terribly but will do anything to keep their children in yeshiva even if it means going hungry some nights. The total worth of all the pieces in my silver cabinet covered only 3/4 of that month's tuition bill (silver is very low now) but we took what they offered and paid the school. Right now my diamond ring is at the jeweler waiting to be appraised this week. We're davening that it will cover at least a month or two.

Gosh, your post makes me so sad. Not sure if its because I doubt I would sacrifice so much for yeshiva and therefore am realizing how terribly materialistic I am. To give up all my posessions, go hungry. I don't think I can do it. You are an amazing person.
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saw50st8




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Oct 09 2015, 8:21 am
amother wrote:
I know you weren't responding to me but I think it's necessary for amothers reading this to know that there are people that are struggling terribly but will do anything to keep their children in yeshiva even if it means going hungry some nights. The total worth of all the pieces in my silver cabinet covered only 3/4 of that month's tuition bill (silver is very low now) but we took what they offered and paid the school. Right now my diamond ring is at the jeweler waiting to be appraised this week. We're davening that it will cover at least a month or two.


Amother, I'm sorry for your struggle.

My sarcasm was at the poster who doesn't seem to understand that money has to come from somewhere and schools need to be financially responsible as well. Those that aren't, don't pay their teachers in full or on time. It's robbing Peter to pay Paul.

Never mind that Catholic schools have scholarships. My coworkers kids are in catholic school and couldn't afford it otherwise.
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Laiya




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Oct 09 2015, 9:41 am
[deleted]
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Laiya




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Oct 09 2015, 10:12 am
SRS wrote:
I've heard this for years. Let's dump all our kids and they will run to fund private schools (just like that)! Yes, schools would have to find a way to accommodate all enrollees because they are legally obligated to take all students, unlike private schools that can say, sorry there is no room. Yes, in some locales, there will be disruption, perhaps even severe disruption, sending salaried teachers and other employees into a frenzy to accommodate. But the district will accommodate because they most accommodate.

And then what happens? It is a rather large assumption that each private school parent will pull their child from public school at month 3, 4, or 5 because askan said jump. Some will not pull their child because it isn't a good idea at that point. Others might enjoy the fiscal breathing room. Still others might find out they really enjoyed what the public school was offering. Meanwhile, the fixed costs of the private schools remain and now there are teachers sweating out their unemployment period.

And what goodwill is gained with those who can influence the fight for school choice (which is at an all time high in the age of common core)? Remember that those teachers and employees that will work to make the accommodation are voters. So are the parents of fellow students who will see their children possibly moved to a different school to make room or put on an alternative schedule to make room. And if a school has to hire more staff to accommodate more students, there could be mid-year job losses. So what goodwill is gained with the teachers unions that already fight tooth and nail against vouchers? So what is gained with the taxpayers who had a dirty trick played on them?

Frankly, if the school choice movement gains favor, it will be because there are noticeable anecdotal and measurable improvements in character and education via charter and private schools in places were school choice has gained a foothold. I'm waiting to see how the Nevada experiment will pan out.


The point would be just to make a point. Was thinking more days, maybe a week; not months.
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Laiya




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Oct 09 2015, 10:29 am
SRS wrote:
I think we face a much worse fate if the schools continue to rely on fewer and fewer parents to pay in full.


Yes, it's a big problem. But telling people they must be fully responsible for paying their own kids' tuitions contradicts the yeshiva world's endorsement of large family sizes (let's even leave out kollel here). Also, the frum community should feel it has an interest in seeing frum children attend yeshiva.

Tuition is so crushing for middle class families because these families have already been hit with huge tax burdens--a portion of which funds public schools.

The Catholic model wouldn't work for the reasons Little Ducky listed above, and because attempts to tell people how to give tzedakah don't really work.

Aside from government funding, I don't see any other solutions here.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Oct 09 2015, 11:39 am
Just want to say, I really feel for you green poster. You are an inspiration. I will daven that Hashem help green poster, He knows who you are.
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Oct 09 2015, 12:55 pm
Laiya wrote:
Yes, it's a big problem. But telling people they must be fully responsible for paying their own kids' tuitions contradicts the yeshiva world's endorsement of large family sizes (let's even leave out kollel here). Also, the frum community should feel it has an interest in seeing frum children attend yeshiva.

Tuition is so crushing for middle class families because these families have already been hit with huge tax burdens--a portion of which funds public schools.

The Catholic model wouldn't work for the reasons Little Ducky listed above, and because attempts to tell people how to give tzedakah don't really work.

Aside from government funding, I don't see any other solutions here.


You are wrong in that attempts to ask people to give tzeduka are highly effective. Professional fund raisers know exactly how to do this. Books are available as well as courses. Common sense appeals work also.

My heart is bleeding for the amother who is going hungry to pay tuition.

Amother, please consider setting up a go fund me page or asking Yael if some how she could set up something to funnel money to you. This has been done before.
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SRS




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Oct 09 2015, 1:23 pm
amother wrote:
I know you weren't responding to me but I think it's necessary for amothers reading this to know that there are people that are struggling terribly but will do anything to keep their children in yeshiva even if it means going hungry some nights. The total worth of all the pieces in my silver cabinet covered only 3/4 of that month's tuition bill (silver is very low now) but we took what they offered and paid the school. Right now my diamond ring is at the jeweler waiting to be appraised this week. We're davening that it will cover at least a month or two.


While I generally support selling stuff to get back on your feet, again, this is too short term of a solution and is just delaying the inevitable. I'd sell stuff to buy a car to get to work, but to sell stuff (and an engagement ring) to make 2.75 months of tuition. . . .just no!
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SRS




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Oct 09 2015, 1:32 pm
Laiya wrote:
The point would be just to make a point. Was thinking more days, maybe a week; not months.


My point is the same. It would create a tremendous amount of animosity. Maybe the financial damage to the district targeted would be different, but you risk upsetting the very voters that can vote for voucher supporting politicians.

Recently a group of Muslim parents went to the district to ask for their holiday to be a school holiday. The district told them, we can't consider it at this point because parents do not have childcare plans (for 2 weeks off). The parents threw a fit, but in the long term, if they are serious about getting their holiday as a day off of school and not just throwing a hissy fit, they should be more than happy to just take their kids out for the day. Upsetting other parents will not win their battle.

Same with us. If we want vouchers, we need to convince the public and the representatives that represent them that vouchers are a win-win. Throwing a fit to disrupt will just upset people.
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