Pakistani dating - sound familiar?

ora_43

Tue, Oct 13 2015, 2:08 pm

I just stumbled across a random blog post from a few years back about Pakistani dating. It's interesting, well-written, and reminds me of stories here about dating in the yeshivish world.

Aunty and I

excerpt:

Quote:

The bait had been thrown. Aunty Mehnaz was being aggressive with her sales technique. This meant that she loved me, wanted to see me married, felt I was pushing the age envelope at 25 and she wanted her best friend my mother to be spared the agony of marrying off a daughter that was past her prime.

This also meant that Aunty Shehnaz’s son was some prize catch doctor-lawyer-banker type in New York or London. Aunty Mehnaz glanced at Shehnaz to see if she was biting. But Aunty Shehnaz was keeping her cards close to her chest. Her silken dupatta perched on her perfectly coiffed hair had not budged. She wasn’t showing any enthusiasm. As a seasoned reader of mothers-with-eligible-sons, I knew I was probably candidate two hundred and sixty five being interviewed for the post of “suitable wife.” I was not daunted. I had gone through this routine as many times as Aunty Shehnaz.

Dolly Welsh

Tue, Oct 13 2015, 3:30 pm

So you are astonished that non-Jews also want their children married and involve themselves in their fates. But it is not amazing other nations are interested in the fates of their children, also.

As a BT I wish somebody had done that for me. I got lucky and did fine anyway. But it wasn't so easy both acting in, and directing, the story, at the same time, and at a young age too. Hashem had to work overtime because my family did nothing. B"H He did.

You won't catch me sneering at the parents who pick a few suitable compatible possible spouses for their children to choose among. People whom they themselves already think are ok, would accept, and feel all right about the parents of. That's not nothing, and people should appreciate it. Nothing would easier than to shrug it off, and let the kids find somebody on their own. Let them get jobs. Let them work it out. Random attraction works so well. ///

I can't comment on other cultures but I never heard of truly coerced marriage among Jews. Nudging, but not coercion. You don't have to marry anybody at all, in Judaism.

The only case I know of an over-nudged, pressured, bride who later found out her husband was gay, so she had to endure a divorce, and get a new one (she's fine now) was from a vaguely Conservative, non-observant home, certainly not a frum home.

Maybe I am off topic. Is this thread about the universal family of Man and universal brotherhood? I am certainly for that.

Dolly Welsh

Tue, Oct 13 2015, 4:04 pm

The fearsome power and towering authority of young women is sometimes not properly respected. Without help, some of young women have been known to not be able to make the whole thing stick. Astonishingly, there are men, many, perhaps, who just don't listen to young women's reasonable wishes, and don't feel enough fear and terror of their disapproval. This reduced awe can lead to the men not marrying anybody at all.

So, other people, older and sterner people, put in their two cents, and a collective community effort is made to assist family formation. So there can be fruition and protection and mutuality, with some kind of order, not like a Buldonian firedrill, which are well known to be chaotic.

Chaotic situations are always harder on the weaker people present. About this, no, your mileage won't vary.

Actually, chaotic situations eventually weaken everybody present, no exceptions. Your mileage won't vary there, either.

If I understand.

sourstix

Tue, Oct 13 2015, 4:40 pm

there is a flipside to this beautiful part where the parents do the searching and approval. the young girls and boys know very little what to look out for. I do think though that parents should evaluate if they see their kids have no clue what to look out for. if they dont then please educate them. tell them what a good and nice man is or woman. I am frustrated with that. for some reason my sisters got it and I didnt. and I fell in the first time. dont know why they didnt tell me. I guess everyone assumed I understood. including my parents. I have no complaints. I think everything is bashert. who we marry is certainly there. it would be nice to know. I will definitely see if I can make it better for my kids if I have some power. we definitely dont control who our kids marry. and what they make of their marriage. but we can give them tips and educate them. I hope I am not way off topic. I am not trying to say the system is terrible. all I am saying is that sheltered children need to be prepared better.

Dolly Welsh

Tue, Oct 13 2015, 6:14 pm

While at the same time saying that sisters in the same house reacted differently to the parents' teaching, and absorbed it differently.

Young men can change.

Older men can be recalcitrant.

There is no magic right way.

As you say, it's not an exact science, but you do say that using logic is still better than wandering around wondering what will randomly fall on one's head, if anything.

ora_43

Tue, Oct 13 2015, 10:43 pm

Dolly, I wasn't astonished by any aspect of the story. And what caught my attention wasn't the basic idea of family setting young people up - that happens in a lot of places.

What I found similar was the pressure over the girl-to-guy ratio and the would-be-MIL's involvement. IOW, lots of women competing for the attention of one potential mother-in-law. With the added pressure of knowing that once they hit a certain age (23, 25) the whole process will get a lot harder.

Also, the fact that yichus is a thing for them, too. Not surprising in retrospect, but it was something I'd never considered.

And I just liked the whole story. To me it was mostly a story about walking the edge between traditional and western values.

Dolly Welsh

Wed, Oct 14 2015, 10:55 am

Oh, what you cite are universal human realities. People like stability, status and youth. Yes. Everywhere. Your mileage will not vary.

I don't see any edge here to walk.

Lots of men line up for the rich, or beautiful, or rich and beautiful, girl, too. It isn't always the girls who do the competing, maneuvering, scheming, and hoping.

As for marrying for love, getting shidduchim right with the personal, the emotional, angle, is one of our values.

I am not sure that is as big a priority in more rigidly structured cultures, where the individuals' feelings may be considered, but come secondary to other factors, and too bad for you.

But here I am wandering off where I know nothing. I only know my own culture.

Yes, I suppose the young man in your story could find he likes a girl with less status, and get into a fight with his mother over wanting her, instead of the most high-status girl. OK, I support you there. He should be happy.

I agree parents can only do so much, and should back off after a certain point, and let the kids choose.

The kids will then have to live with their choices and not complain. So I am with you there.