Is a Jewish school the right choice for every child?

shabbatiscoming

Sun, Nov 15 2015, 7:01 am

Merrymom wrote:

Rav Mizrachi gives a lecture on this topic. He says the money you save in all those years won't cover a month in rehab. Just something to think about as public school is not a good environment for a frum kid. Not to say that drugs cannot be found in frum schools but the incidence in a good yeshiva is much much lower.

And what I think about when I read this is just a rabbi finding a way to make parents feel guilty about sending children to public school. Sometimes it has to be done. And sometimes it is a better place than a jewish school for some students.

m in Israel

Sun, Nov 15 2015, 7:06 am

imasinger wrote:

I am not sure whether to be amused or appalled at the lack of awareness. Try talking to an administrator in a public school system.

Folks, public schools are not made of money. They do not just "get tax dollars allocated accordingly." They struggle to figure out every dollar, just like day schools. And there's never enough. Their class sizes are often larger, and there are many more kids with issues. There are limits to how much people will pay in taxes to support schools, and many competing needs.

The big difference is that they are mandated to serve every child, so they HAVE to find a way.

When day schools and yeshivas have a similar attitude, things begin to change. There are community organizations that can help. There are parents in the system that can help. There is teacher training that can help. I have seen nissim once the commitment was made by the school.

And many times a one-on-on aide for a whole school day is neither necessary or sufficient.

OP, if you post on the specific issues you are seeing, either here or in the teacher's room on the board, you may get some good suggestions.

This is true, but not completely. Public schools in general spend a lot more per student than most yeshivos. Additionally, they have the advantage of scale. Since public schools systems are much larger, they can be much more cost efficient in terms of special ed services. For example they can combine all the students in the district with a specific type of need into one class, and then run a special class for 8 or 12 students. A yeshiva may have only 1 or 2 students who can be put into such a class. Obviously running a class for 8 to 12 students cost much less than running a class for 1 or 2.

imasinger

Sun, Nov 15 2015, 7:34 am

m in Israel wrote:

Public schools spend a lot of that extra on things that a dayschool couldn't or wouldn't.

If you are talkng extreme special needs, the type that must have a specific type of classroom, then you are right. But OP was speaking of kids that are in a regular classroom. Those kids would probably be mainstreamed in a public school, too, and pulled out for tutoring, speech, OT, etc. They would be on an IEP, which would direct the classroom teacher about accommodations that should be made in the room.

I have taught in dayschools and in public schools. I have seen what can be done, even with limited resources, in both settings. I have fought for my DS with ASD, and worked to educate his dayschool about how he didn't need a full time aide, nor would he get one in public school, but I can and do take him over to the PS for speech and OT.

I have seen day school teachers get training in how to reach every child, including the ones with disabilities, and I have seen the successes. (And the failures. Nothing in this world is perfect, and that is true in the public and in the private schools).

When "we just can't" changes to "we have to find a way", amazing things can happen.

amother

Seafoam

Sun, Nov 15 2015, 10:35 am

imasinger wrote:

Why isn't the school making the necessary adjustments to handle these children? The public schools manage it because they have to. Dayschools should feel that they have to as well, and should have resources for students with special needs.

The other side of the equation is/are clueless parents. The ones who insist that there is nothing wrong with their child, and refuse to get an evaluation. The ones who don't respond to their child's struggles by either learning enough to help them, or hiring a tutor.

For one of the students I am talking about, everything I bolded is the case. I've spoken to the parents and their response is that they don't really think Judaic Studies are important anyway so they just don't care all that much (then why do they want their child in a Jewish school? Don't ask me) and they don't know Hebrew so they can't help at home. They refuse to get her evaluated. (FTR the problems are across the board, in English and Hebrew. I call this child over after every quiz to read me her answers (written in ENGLISH) because they are illegible (and wrong anyway most of the time Sad

).)

Imasinger, what do you think the schools can/should be doing other than having someone do pull-out, which my school does and which I just don't think helps enough? In situations like these, my principal tends to say that if the parents won't even work with us, the child is not our responsibility. I don't like/agree with that point of view, but I also have no idea what more I can do.

amother

Goldenrod

Sun, Nov 15 2015, 11:17 am

amother wrote:

What gets me is when schools refuse all external help... I know of a trained professional who wanted to volunteer time providing special services FOR FREE. IN A YESHIVA/DAY SCHOOL. No payment needed at all for therapies etc that could cost a school tons if they were forced to hire someone. No gimmicks. Just had time and wanted to offer the school this help.
The school said no. "Our school is full of perfect little angels with zero need for any special help". Give me a break.

A very similar thing happened to me last week!

I wonder how many kids they will lose this year for a 45-minutes/2x weekly IEP of group OT/SLT/reading support (needs that can be easily accommodate in the day school, or by private therapy)... I wonder how many of those kids will learn Torah for the last time when they finish their last day at the school... It's heartbreaking.

imasinger

Sun, Nov 15 2015, 12:40 pm

amother wrote:

That's a horse of a different color.

If this thread were titled, "What are schools supposed to do when parents don't care about their kids?", it would be a whole different conversation.

Sadly, while the NT kids in such families can get by, the ones with issues are stuck. And so is the school.

I'll bet this kid shouldn't have moved up to your grade in the first place. And maybe not the one before, either.

I have seen day school administrators give an ultimatum -- evaluation/treatment, or child repeats the grade/is not invited back. And I think that is probably fair.

Even in public schools, parents are expected to work together with the school.

amother

Saddlebrown

Sun, Nov 15 2015, 1:33 pm

amother wrote:

In this case it was a provider who realized that the frum schools couldn't afford the specialist but knew it was very likely needed (statistically). The provider had time so wanted to help. No cost to school. Well, according to the principal, this school had ZERO students who needed it. Rolling Eyes

m in Israel

Sun, Nov 15 2015, 3:19 pm

imasinger wrote:

OP described the students as having "severe learning disabilities" and said that the school provides "pull out" tutoring but it is not enough for these students. I understood OP's whole point as being these children were being mainstreamed in a general education classroom when they really needed a more specialized environment. ASD is a very different type of issue than a severe learning disability.

I worked in special ed in the NY city public schools for 10 years and I have participated and run numerous IEP meetings, and have written literally hundreds of IEPs. A child with "severe" learning disabilities would at most be placed in an inclusion class (now called "ICT" or "integrated co-teaching"), and more likely be placed in a 12:1 or 12:1:1 class. They may be placed in a general ed class for some periods of the day, but it is not likely that it would be their primary placement. It is also worth noting that a large public school system has enough in place to allow for this type of flexibility. Meaning a student can be placed in a 12:1 class for half of the day, spend 1 period a day in an ICT class, and the remainder of the day in a general ed class with "supplementary aids and services". These types of arrangements are usually not practical in a typical yeshiva scenario.

Of course, we don't know if the students the OP is describing truly have a diagnosed "severe learning disability" or have a mild LD, a speech impairment, or the like which of course can and should be dealt with in a regular classroom with support services.

amother

Seafoam

Sun, Nov 15 2015, 4:21 pm

imasinger wrote:

My principal said he refused to give that ultimatum because he felt they would switch to public school if he did.

Which I guess brings us back to the title of this thread... Wink

amother

Seafoam

Sun, Nov 15 2015, 4:24 pm

imasinger wrote:

OP said she worked at an OOT school, where class sizes tend to be smaller.

OP, how many kids are in your class?

And how severe are the problems?

Don't want to give an exact answer, but around 15.

In the case I was talking about before, the students is 2-3 grades below my grade level. I have a couple other cases which are not that extreme, mainly reading difficulties but those affect SO MUCH else. B"H this year there are not really behavioral difficulties, though I've had that in the past and of course that just makes everything that much harder.

Merrymom

Mon, Nov 16 2015, 1:34 am

Bruria wrote:

Choosing a school is more than if it's Jewish or not. I wouldn't put my child in a school that I thought was bad, period. If the Jewish local school is great, that is preferable. But a good public school is better than a Jewish school that doesn't care about secular subjects, those are also important.
It's all about each specific child and each school, it's not black and white.

How about no school at all. I'd keep my kid home all day every day before I would ever put them in that kind of environment and I'm not just talking drugs. A frum kid should never be there.

m in Israel

Mon, Nov 16 2015, 6:16 am

Merrymom wrote:

How about no school at all. I'd keep my kid home all day every day before I would ever put them in that kind of environment and I'm not just talking drugs. A frum kid should never be there.

"Never" is a very strong word. I get where you are coming from, and I certainly agree that public school is a very bedieved choice for a frum child. But this thread is talking about children with severe disabilities whose needs cannot be met in the available frum schools. I truly hope you are never faced with such a heartbreaking decision, but I will tell you that I know first hand about a number of cases where parents were told by Daas Torah that it was the right thing to do for their child. BH I was never in this position as a parent -- but due to my previous job I was involved in a number of cases as a professional, and the decision was certainly not taken lightly by anyone involved. Until you have been in this situation, you can NEVER (yes, I am using that word) judge.

TwinsMommy

Mon, Nov 16 2015, 8:01 am

Sadly, the middos at my kids' public schools are far better than the middos at the Jewish school my kids would attend if they didn't have special needs. (my husband works there). GENERALLY speaking---- there are SOME kids with good middos at that school but in general. Sad

I volunteer a lot in the public schools so I see firsthand---- there is so much that the Jewish schools could learn from these public schools. From all public schools? No, certainly not. But I am truly proud of the public schools in our district.