Does the KLBD Hechsher from England compare to OU?

amother

Gray

Wed, Nov 25 2015, 6:09 pm

amother wrote:

I think Cadbury chocolates has their Hechsher.

are you sure that it has a KLBD? it certainly never used to.
Even if it does, it is cholov akum, not cholov yisrael, and R Moshe's famous heter for not cholov yisrael does not extend to outside of the USA. Therefore, most people do not eat not cholov yisrael in the UK.

I would not recommend it unless you ask your rav. The london beis din 'approves' all cadburys chocolate products that are kosher, that means that they check that all ingredients are kosher by talking to or visiting the company. It is not like the US where so many people are meikil on cholov stam. not straightforward. But I am sure that you will get posters telling you that cholov akum is fine in the UK. In the UK city that I grew up in, the only people who ate cholov akum (ie not chalav yisrael) were those LWMO where th mothers didnt cover hair and wore pants. Not sure of course if it is like that everywhere.

if you are looking for good chocolate, schmerling swiss is much better! and its cholov yisroel

(anon so as not to give away where I grew up!)

boysrus

Wed, Nov 25 2015, 6:13 pm

Does KLBD compare to OU? In what way do you mean? It is definitely accepted in England as much as (if not more than) the OU is accepted in America if that;s what you mean.
Cadbury's chocolate is a different matter. I didnt know it had a hechsher at all, I thought it was just on the approved list, ie they check it out and say its okay and put it on their KLBD Kashrus list.
As a previous poster said, it is mostly MO who eat non CY in England. Yes, its true that R Moshe Feinstein's kulah for chalav stam is only for America.

boysrus

Wed, Nov 25 2015, 7:11 pm

amother wrote:

What does that mean? He said you have to be medakdek on CY outside of USA. Why would that be? Whats the difference?

Cadbury products can be searched here, but I think it applies to Cabury products in or from England:

http://www.kosher.org.uk/klbd-koshersearch

R Moshe's kulah was on the premise that the USA has very very strict rules and penalties in place, so that nobody would want to risk mixing in any milk other than cows milk. The rules are different, less strict or whatever in other countries. R Moshe specifically said that his halachic ruling was for milk produced in the USA ONLY. Therefore, yes, many more people are medakdik on cholov yisrael in England. In england, CY is not seen as a chumrah, but as a more straightforward halacha by most people. From my experience, (like another poster wrote as well), it is mainly only left wing MO who are not makpid on CY in England. I assume that things have not changed in that regard since my childhood in england (not that ridiculously long ago)

amother

Babyblue

Thu, Nov 26 2015, 1:44 am

Most people I know in the UK (and I live in London) will have chalav stam and consider it ok, but for more social reasons only have chalav yisrael. This includes us, we know chalav stam is ok and will have it outside or in someone's home, and of my friend about 50 % have CY,50% CS. The rules about cows milk only are extremely strict but since the horse meat scandal people are less trusting.

Most of those who do CY will still have KLBD and some have CS in other foods.
Some of the reason for CY is that it is cheaper than CS and so easily available that it is more difficult to get CS if you live in GG or Hendon.

Obviously there are different communities, in SH no one would dream of CS but they also wouldn't have KLBD, whether that is political as well as haskafic I don't know, but it is likely. Kedassia and KLBD "hate" each other, so this is an influence. Some people I know won't eat kedassiah meat but will eat LBD because of political/ immoral behaviour by some of the kedassiah board.

If you want to put me and the people I know who have mostly CY but don't freak out at a bit of CS in abox, we span the MO from LW to RW and also more yeshivish groups, including some local rabbis who do the same as us (not naming shuls but the span of most GG and Hendon shuls except the chassidish ones).

We don't use gelatin and we are careful to wash out our mouths before having marshmallows (which have kosher fish gelatin) after a BBQ.

amother

Smokey

Thu, Nov 26 2015, 1:56 am

[...]

My parents are lubavitch and extremely strict about kashrus and hechesherim and will only eat very specific hechsherim for meat. Still, they happily eat in KLBD restaurants, they just don't eat the meat.

How is it difficult to buy cs? You can buy it in any corner shop or supermarket. Maybe its hard to find CS hard cheese - almost all kosher cheese is CY. But milk, chocolate, yogurts seems to be readily available and cheap.

amother

Babyblue

Fri, Nov 27 2015, 1:46 am

amother wrote:

Well, CS cheese isn't kosher, so it is irrelevant. No one considers that to be ok, not people who keep klbd.

In my part of GG, the late opening kosher shops are easier to get to and closer than the polish shop or supermarket, and CY milk in both the kosher shop and the supermarket is cheaper than CS (84p for 2 pints for CY, around a pound for the same CS in Tesco), so it is genuinely easier and cheaper to get kosher, supervised milk. And it is delivered if you want in GG.

There are some halachic differences between meat from kedassia, klbd and other hechserim like manchester or the chassidish ones, but also lots of politics esp between kedassia /OU and KLBD/ US. I know some people who only eat kedassia, and some who won't eat kedassia because of their immoral behaviour in other areas of their beis din.

amother

Puce

Fri, Nov 27 2015, 3:13 am

I dont think anyone has mentioned KLBD is a very accepted in England ( I know people who won't eat ou but will eat KLBD) . If a product contains milk making it chalav stam the symbol would be KLBD D (with a D for dairy next to the symbol ) . There is also a wide range of products in which the company won't put the actual stamp on the food boxes because they are afraid it will 'offend' potential customers. So the KLBD has an extensive list on their website of all approved products.
As a side point there are definetly frum 'skirt wearing, sheital covering ' people who will eat KLBD D , we are not here to judge. !

Ruchel

Fri, Nov 27 2015, 4:22 am

amother wrote:

So in England, because of the less strict laws in the milk industry, only left wing Orthodox eat non Cholov Yosroel products?

Can I safely assume that families of skirts-only wearing women, would NOT eat Cholov Stam products?

WTH?
You know nothing of Europe. Nothing. There are rabbanim who eat chalav stam in Europe. And while there are other heterim for CS, the rav Feinstein one also applies, as I learned.
If anything European rules are stronger. Trying very hard to not become mean here. Wow. Wow.

Mrs Bissli

Sat, Nov 28 2015, 2:56 pm

OK, ladies, some clarifications are much needed here. I'll tackle point by point.

1. Not all Cadbury choccies are approved. Looking at their list (which by the way is searchable on LBDK website), there're several items that is non-kosher, including Boost, Crème Egg Twisted (regular Crème Egg is on the list as approved), Starbar.

2. Indeed, LBD has two tiers of supervision, certified (may or may NOT have logos) and approved. DH used to learn with #2 guy at LBD Kashrut division, but from what I hear, they only put the food items on the approved list if they feel comfortable based on the level of information, types of ingredients, contract agreements with manufacturer, and esp modes of manufacturing (eg manufacturers are far less likely to change ingredients for products made on continuous process).

3. As I understand, R Moshe Feinstein's ruling on chalav stam is conditional on LOCAL secular regulation being stringent, penalty for violation being steep, and alternative non-kosher milk sources more expensive/less readily available, so manufacturers/dairy companies have noticeably reduced incentive to adulterate milk. So country SUCH AS USA falls in to this category where you can rely on heter on CS.

EU (note country regulations are superceded by EU rules for most W European EC members plus Switzerland, though I doubt this includes recent EU member states) regulation on milk is at least as stringent, if not more strict, than comparable laws in the US. For this reasons, KLBD takes a similar stance accepting CS to that of O-U in the US for packaged foods. Though LBD requires milky restaurants under its supervision to use only CY products only.

4. To the best of my knowledge, it is not jut what some posters called LWMO people who use CS. I personally know at least 5-6 rabbinical families (I think all but 1 serve United Synagogue congregations) who use CS. Quite a number of people whom I would classify as middle of the road to machmir MO use CY milk but CS dairy products (def including chocolates, yogurt, butter).

Hope this clarifies the situation here a bit...

Mrs Bissli

Sat, Nov 28 2015, 3:01 pm

Ruchel wrote:

Yeah, I hear you. Some people are not familiar with different environment and make ~~stoopid~~ uninformed remarks. We once had a guest from USA not so long ago, who blatantly commented he thinks all European Jews lack yiddishkeit than his American compatriots, because European Jews only wait 3 hours between meat and milk!! Rolling Eyes

Brownies

Mon, Dec 14 2015, 6:14 am

Thank you Ruchel and Mrs Bissli...some of the comments on this thread were irritating to put it mildly. For the record, I cover my hair and wear skirts only and eat chalav stam in the UK. So do many people I know. I always thought of KLBD as roughly equivalent to the OU as a hechsher - it is stricter in some aspects and more lenient in others.

(As a side point, I can buy a 4-pint bottle of milk in Tesco for ?1, so no CY is not cheaper for my milk-loving family!)