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Anyone have a family member who OTDed as an older adult
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professor




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Nov 27 2015, 12:17 pm
I surely hope that questioning is a process everyone goes through. a life that isn't investigated is not worth living.
what does going OTD have to do with this?
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oliveoil




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Nov 27 2015, 12:19 pm
"professor" - your ignorance and big headedness is astounding.
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MagentaYenta




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Nov 27 2015, 12:28 pm
professor wrote:
I surely hope that questioning is a process everyone goes through. a life that isn't investigated is not worth living.
what does going OTD have to do with this?


You missed the obvious in my post.
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Nov 28 2015, 9:56 am
professor wrote:
I am very unsatisfied with not receiving answers.
so
some people who,
JUST LIKE ME
are not satisfied wit not receiving answers.
did they actually FIND the answers they were looking for when they became otd?
because I would like to meet someone who understands EVERYTHING. and has all the answers. maybe they could answer some of mine.
science answered some of my questions but left many many more questions unanswered. I looked everywhere for those answers, but have yet to find them.
going otd will not answer my questions at all. unless there exists a human who is
just like me
and was dissatisfied with not getting answers
and went otd
and found
all
answers

No one understands everything. If you ever meet someone who claims to, run.
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professor




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Nov 28 2015, 2:53 pm
amother wrote:
Riiiiiight. I think you should read the book. He lost custody after he'd been divorced for about a year. He went on to live a frum life for about 10 years or so after he listened to radio. He went otd because he could no longer believe in the Torah. He couldn't find any remotely logical proof. I think that answer scares you professor.

no, it does not scare me at all. I love engaging in discussions about logical proof.
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professor




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Nov 28 2015, 2:56 pm
imasoftov wrote:
No one understands everything. If you ever meet someone who claims to, run.

on the contrary. I would ask questions which would prove to this someone that his claims are baseless.
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professor




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Nov 28 2015, 3:02 pm
oliveoil wrote:
"professor" - your ignorance and big headedness is astounding.

it is very obvious to me that I am the most hated member on imamother.
do elaborate, please.
cite evidence of my "ignorance" and "bigheadedness"
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amother
Tangerine


 

Post Sat, Nov 28 2015, 5:15 pm
I doubt anyone cares enough to hate you, but so far you've made no attempt to make a logical or coherent argument to support your thesis that your OTD relative is wrong.

Bring some specific points and maybe someone will address them. But complaining that it doesn't make sense or that you can prove them wrong without even debating what the issues are, is sad nonsense. I can't make head or tail of your rather bizarre posts.

Maybe your starting point should be to actually ask your so called relative what his/her reasons are and discuss it with them, rather than bring your projected views and suppositions onto a random website to discuss them in the absence of the person you purport to be so concerned about.
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shoshana2




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Nov 28 2015, 5:40 pm
Adults who decide to go OTD are wrong! Maybe there were underlying circumstances surrounding their decision an we should never be tested but since when is giving up torah and mitzvos Not wrong?
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professor




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Nov 28 2015, 5:48 pm
amother wrote:
I doubt anyone cares enough to hate you, but so far you've made no attempt to make a logical or coherent argument to support your thesis that your OTD relative is wrong.

Bring some specific points and maybe someone will address them. But complaining that it doesn't make sense or that you can prove them wrong without even debating what the issues are, is sad nonsense. I can't make head or tail of your rather bizarre posts.

Maybe your starting point should be to actually ask your so called relative what his/her reasons are and discuss it with them, rather than bring your projected views and suppositions onto a random website to discuss them in the absence of the person you purport to be so concerned about.

going OTD is wrong. there is no need for a logical or coherent explanation to support "my thesis" that not keeping kosher or shabbos is wrong on a so-called frum forum. assuming I am conversing with orthodox members on a religious discussion board.

should I bring specific points? hashem created the world in 6 days and called the seventh day a day of rest. so every frum person should keep shabbos.
I am complaining that it doesn't make sense, because it doesn't make sense.
I can prove any agnostic or atheist wrong, but that is not the issue.
do you want proof that Hashem exists? that he created the world? we all know this because we are all frum. or are we?

can't say I did not lose my temper and create some bizarre posts, but I have to say I am a bit disillusioned by this so called frum website.

I would like to discuss these issues with my "so called relative", but seeing as there are kids involved who are super-confused as it is, and they are always around my "so called relative" who asked not to discuss this in front of them, I am a bit stuck.
meanwhile, my kids are trying their best not to make their "so called relatives" feel bad because of their parents choices and I am trying to keep everyone somewhat comfortable.


Last edited by professor on Sat, Nov 28 2015, 5:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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professor




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Nov 28 2015, 5:50 pm
shoshana2 wrote:
Adults who decide to go OTD are wrong! Maybe there were underlying circumstances surrounding their decision an we should never be tested but since when is giving up torah and mitzvos Not wrong?

thank you!
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Nov 28 2015, 6:00 pm
The following post belongs as an edit to my last post, but since the conversation went in another direction I'll post separately.
I wrote there on p. 6
I don't remember every post here. But the one you're responding to, professor was talking about how the questions are received, not the answers. I think that she would be respectful and compassionate to a Shulem Deen, having finished his book. Because even if he couldn't be mekabel the answers, he asked sincerely.
What am I missing?


Professor, what I should have added there is, listen carefully to smart alecky questions. I suspect that overwhelmingly, there is pain there somewhere and even if it seems smart alecky, it will never hurt to be kind. Years later someone will remember how a question was dealt with possibly naively, but definitely kindly. Hakhe es shinav is something to be used carefully, and probably not a trick to try at home with most of the people we encounter.
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Laiya




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Nov 28 2015, 6:03 pm
Professor, this sounds like a painful situation.

I think sometimes we need to just accept that people we love make decisions that we don't like or agree with and may never understand, and can't control. Hugs.
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professor




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Nov 28 2015, 6:10 pm
PinkFridge wrote:
The following post belongs as an edit to my last post, but since the conversation went in another direction I'll post separately.
I wrote there on p. 6
I don't remember every post here. But the one you're responding to, professor was talking about how the questions are received, not the answers. I think that she would be respectful and compassionate to a Shulem Deen, having finished his book. Because even if he couldn't be mekabel the answers, he asked sincerely.
What am I missing?


Professor, what I should have added there is, listen carefully to smart alecky questions. I suspect that overwhelmingly, there is pain there somewhere and even if it seems smart alecky, it will never hurt to be kind. Years later someone will remember how a question was dealt with possibly naively, but definitely kindly. Hakhe es shinav is something to be used carefully, and probably not a trick to try at home with most of the people we encounter.

yes, I accept what you are saying and agree with you. I apologize that on imamother I lose my temper so easily, I shouldn't. I will try to work on that.
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GreenEyes26




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Nov 28 2015, 6:13 pm
professor wrote:
going OTD is wrong. there is no need for a logical or coherent explanation to support "my thesis" that not keeping kosher or shabbos is wrong on a so-called frum forum. assuming I am conversing with orthodox members on a religious discussion board.

should I bring specific points? hashem created the world in 6 days and called the seventh day a day of rest. so every frum person should keep shabbos.
I am complaining that it doesn't make sense, because it doesn't make sense.
I can prove any agnostic or atheist wrong, but that is not the issue.
do you want proof that Hashem exists? that he created the world? we all know this because we are all frum. or are we?

can't say I did not lose my temper and create some bizarre posts, but I have to say I am a bit disillusioned by this so called frum website.

I would like to discuss these issues with my "so called relative", but seeing as there are kids involved who are super-confused as it is, and they are always around my "so called relative" who asked not to discuss this in front of them, I am a bit stuck.
meanwhile, my kids are trying their best not to make their "so called relatives" feel bad because of their parents choices and I am trying to keep everyone somewhat comfortable.


If this is the way you truly feel about the very complicated issues with being observant, then of course you can't wrap your head around why your relative has gone OTD. This understanding of what Judaisim and Halacha means is third-grade level.
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professor




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Nov 28 2015, 6:20 pm
GreenEyes26 wrote:
If this is the way you truly feel about the very complicated issues with being observant, then of course you can't wrap your head around why your relative has gone OTD. This understanding of what Judaisim and Halacha means is third-grade level.

please clarify: what you think "the very complicated issues with being observant" are. please help me skip a few grades. I would like to think at least on a high school level...
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Nov 28 2015, 6:42 pm
professor wrote:
please clarify: what you think "the very complicated issues with being observant" are. please help me skip a few grades. I would like to think at least on a high school level...


Look, you have strong emunah. Emunah peshuta is not a dirty word (or two words) but it's not something that comes easily. I personally have done some work on this recently and feel b"H connected more strongly than I have. And I so completely understand how difficult it can be.

You surely know the pasuk in Devarim, "Ma Hashem Elokecha doresh mimcha ela l'yira Oso" (sorry, am I butchering it?). And everyone, and I mean everyone jumps on this: what does Moshe mean, what - as if to say, all Hashem wants, one little thing - does Hashem want from us but to fear Him?!?!? That's all??? Maybe to Moshe it comes easily but for the rest of us it's a lifelong avodah. (Though I suspect that even for Moshe it was a lifelong avodah but on the maintenance level. Because even Moshe Rabbeinu didn't stay stagnant or in a holding pattern.)

And if all these threads, including this one, teach, there is no OSFA when it comes to belief.

YOU were taught well. YOU connected to teachers. Things, b"H, resonated so beautifully with YOU. Not everyone is you though, and this may be your biggest challenge, and possibly the great gift of growth this difficult situation is presenting you with. Because that is what life's difficult situations are supposed to accomplish - growth.
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shoshana2




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Nov 28 2015, 7:11 pm
I have been in your situation in the past professor, I found it helpful to say to children " it's hard to see someone you love make the wrong choices "
And " until someones last day Hashem waits for them to do teshuva"
I think it's a waste of time to debate with adults who are OTD because there can be so many emotional issues involved. Intellectual debates should be left to the professionals.
Hatzlacha!
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