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Forum
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amother
Chocolate
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 Sun, Nov 29 2015, 10:30 am
| amother wrote: | This is all very tricky. I know many people IRL who were told by their kallah teachers/rabbi "Ose Retzon Balah" but were being controlled/abused. Obviously in a healthy marriage where there is no addiction/abuse she should always respect her DH and respectfully discuss a disagreement.
I think people misunderstand obey. We are supposed to always show respect! And to everyone for that matter!
Anon bec I'm spouse of addict and B"H found good rebbi who understood that I have to not obey and set strict boundaries!! |
Please share the name or private anon email. Looking for a rav/dayan who can help me.
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amother
Amethyst
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Sun, Nov 29 2015, 10:36 am
No however my dh thinks that yes. 
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professor
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Sun, Nov 29 2015, 10:48 am
no, not if she doesn't want. there is a saying that a pure woman does her husband's will, but that pertains to doing things like not shaving her head - even if it's the minhug or if a woman does things in the bedroom that would be considered questionable to outsiders
it basically exempts the woman from feeling guilty about not following laws at the request of her husband, but she does not have to do anything she isn't comfortable with!
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Chana Miriam S
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Sun, Nov 29 2015, 11:21 am
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Isn't that a Christian thing? Definitely not
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shoshana2
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Sun, Nov 29 2015, 11:29 am
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When I make my husband king he makes me queen. If that's not happening then it may not be a healthy marriage.
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Laiya
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Sun, Nov 29 2015, 12:56 pm
| andrea levy wrote: | | Isn't that a Christian thing? Definitely not |
[deleted]
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MagentaYenta
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Sun, Nov 29 2015, 1:05 pm
| Laiya wrote: | | This sounds to me like a branch of a Christian belief, where the wife must "obey". (google "quiverfull" if you're interested) |
It's typical of conservative evangelical xtians, Quiverfull, Southern Baptist, Missionary Baptist, Primitive Baptist, conservative Calvinists and a whole slew of other small sects. Main stream Protestants don't follow this.
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Butterfly07
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Sun, Nov 29 2015, 1:09 pm
Obey? No.
Respect and be attentive? Yes.
A relationship (especially marriage) is a two way street!
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notshanarishona
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Sun, Nov 29 2015, 1:43 pm
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treestump
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Sun, Nov 29 2015, 1:47 pm
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I'd love if someone would post this on a frum men's forum so that we can compare the answers... I have a feeling most of the answers will be quite different.
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mommy3b2c
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Sun, Nov 29 2015, 1:55 pm
| treestump wrote: | | I'd love if someone would post this on a frum men's forum so that we can compare the answers... I have a feeling most of the answers will be quite different. |
Really? Most frum men think that their wives must obey them? I highly doubt that.
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cm
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Sun, Nov 29 2015, 2:02 pm
| MagentaYenta wrote: | | It's typical of conservative evangelical xtians, Quiverfull, Southern Baptist, Missionary Baptist, Primitive Baptist, conservative Calvinists and a whole slew of other small sects. Main stream Protestants don't follow this. |
Nor do mainstream Jews.
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yksraya
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Sun, Nov 29 2015, 2:12 pm
| cm wrote: | | Nor do mainstream Jews. |
exactly, it's not jewish values. No where does it say "you have to obey your dh" yes it says a woman who does her dh's will is blessed etc but that does not mean that "he gives orders - she obeys them" rather that a woman who does as she knows her dh would like is a smart woman.
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Dolly Welsh
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Sun, Nov 29 2015, 2:54 pm
One can get tangled up in theory. When two people live together, they are always passing authority back and forth. Accountability brings authority, and authority brings accountability. There is such a thing as chain of command. No man will mess with a woman's decisions about things that concern her intimately. A woman will accede decision-making to a man where he is the one ultimately on deck to bear the consequences, the vulnerability, and the burden.
In healthy marriages.
Of course, alas, there are relationships where one of them pushes the other around unreasonably, and meddles in decisions that the other person should be making, because that other person will be bearing the accountability.
All this yelling "no" is naïve. Of course men have authority where they jolly well should, because they are on deck to do the job in question. That is logical.
This stuff is subtle, not mechanical. In real life.
Even the Xtians don't mean "obey" in a federal prison sense, where the warden decides if you get your exercise hour today, or you don't because you were bad. Come on.
Life isn't lived in theory.
This OP has something on her mind she doesn't feel like discussing in detail. That is her right. She sounds upset. I hope she consults a Rav. That's what they are there for. These matters are not simple, and are not solved by saying "no" to an abstract theory.
Last edited by Dolly Welsh on Sun, Nov 29 2015, 2:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Laiya
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Sun, Nov 29 2015, 2:55 pm
| MagentaYenta wrote: | | It's typical of conservative evangelical xtians, Quiverfull, Southern Baptist, Missionary Baptist, Primitive Baptist, conservative Calvinists and a whole slew of other small sects. Main stream Protestants don't follow this. |
Thank you
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Dolly Welsh
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Sun, Nov 29 2015, 3:05 pm
I have the impression that even those more conservative groups don't impose anything particularly weird on their wives. "Obey" is a word. Getting rid of it doesn't change much.
Modern life is almost marriage-free. That isn't so great either. There is a case in the news now, about some guy whose girlfriend copped a fit after birth, gave the baby up for adoption without his consent, and he is trying to get his child. He sort of has got her, because the adopting couple were nice enough to involve him, or something.
As the infant girl's parents weren't even legally married at all, a lot is murky. Is he the father, anyway? Tests for that aren't always fool proof. Can the woman do what she wants with her own kid if there's no legal marriage framework?
It's taken forty years (not really a long time, historically), but marriage has been destroyed, to the point it is now affective. Meaning it's what you feel like doing today. So nobody is doing it.
Somewhere, some kind of structure got lost, and the whole thing fell apart, plunk, splat, on the ground.
It isn't missed, because nobody wants kids much any more, outside the religious communities.
Torah has gevurah in it. This is a Torah community.
Sometimes being nice isn't enough.
Ask that baby girl. She is a real girl. She will grow up. Her mom could give her away, and did. That wouldn't have been quite so simple if there had been some "obey" in her family origin. When old enough to discuss it, she may sigh and wish her cockamamie parents had lived in a stricter society.
There are no pat, easy answers, but
(The manuscript ends here.)
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Simple1
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Sun, Nov 29 2015, 3:10 pm
I've seen mentioned "The Surrendered Wife". Maybe I read the comments wrong, but it seemed like it was asking the wife to be obedient in a way that's not my style.
Otherwise in a healthy marriage, both partners should try to accommodate each other's needs and wants when possible and if it's reasonable to do so..
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Dolly Welsh
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Sun, Nov 29 2015, 3:36 pm
| yksraya wrote: | | exactly, it's not jewish values. No where does it say "you have to obey your dh" yes it says a woman who does her dh's will is blessed etc but that does not mean that "he gives orders - she obeys them" rather that a woman who does as she knows her dh would like is a smart woman. |
No, a holy woman.
(I am a bit beyond my expertise here, but you are fiddling with the word. It doesn't say smart. It says blessed.)
As for the Surrendered Wife book, I haven't read it, but anybody who mentions it should have read it. The whole book. Before having a view concerning it.
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amother
Salmon
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Sun, Nov 29 2015, 3:39 pm
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Actually I think there is somewhere that says such a thing BUT IT ALSO SAYS A DH MUST TREAT A WIFE LIKE HE WOUKD HIMSELF.. If u take the two principles together then there will be a healthy marriage bec then even if the dh would expect his wife to obey him, he would take into account her feelings...and would not demand unreasonable things so as to treat her like a queen!! The problem is I know some men who only quote,the source about their wives obeying them and they dont remember the other source about treating their wives how they want to be treated....so those dh are little like a tyrant according to me but they only follow what they want to follow and that is wrong ..
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