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-> Interesting Discussions
yksraya
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Sun, Nov 29 2015, 3:43 pm
amother wrote: | Actually I think there is somewhere that says such a thing BUT IT ALSO SAYS A DH MUST TREAT A WIFE LIKE HE WOUKD HIMSELF.. If u take the two principles together then there will be a healthy marriage bec then even if the dh would expect his wife to obey him, he would take into account her feelings...and would not demand unreasonable things so as to treat her like a queen!! The problem is I know some men who only quote,the source about their wives obeying them and they dont remember the other source about treating their wives how they want to be treated....so those dh are little like a tyrant according to me but they only follow what they want to follow and that is wrong .. |
Can you bring the source where it says "a wife must obey her dh"?
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amother
Salmon
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Sun, Nov 29 2015, 4:11 pm
No I dont! I dont remember sources!
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yksraya
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Sun, Nov 29 2015, 4:17 pm
amother wrote: | No I dont! I dont remember sources! |
bec there isn't any!
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zaq
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Sun, Nov 29 2015, 4:23 pm
If I believed that that was an actual precept of the Jewish religion, I would become a Druid so fast you wouldn't know I'd left till you heard the sonic boom minutes after I passed by. Happily for my spiritual future and the spiritual future of my descendants, I am in no danger of turning Druid because I do not believe that "wives, submit to your husbands" is a Jewish precept at all. It is from the so-called new testament--the same new testament that advises people that "it is better to marry than to burn" but celibacy is best of all. Also not a jewish precept, thank G-d.
We have the beautiful example of the KBH telling Avraham to do what Sarah tells him. We have the example of Avigayil who did not do the will of her aptly-named husband Naval. And the interpretation of " isha ksheirah osah retzon baalah" that I learned is that an ishah ksheirah shapes her husband's will, iow influences him to want the right things.
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treestump
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Sun, Nov 29 2015, 4:31 pm
If I could only dig up my dusty HS notes on Eishes Chayil, I could cite hundreds of sources... Though I strongly suspect most of them were mangled, twisted and reshaped.
It was drilled into our heads over and over again, by almost every teacher, that our job was to be submissive and obedient to our husbands, that they had to make every spiritual decision, and that the only times we were allowed to express a different opinion was if he was making the wrong spiritual choice.
But then again, many of my teachers were chassidish, so that might have had something to do with it... My chassidish friends are generally more of the 'husband is authority/leader' mentality.
Thankfully, I don't have that kind of marriage.
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amother
Olive
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Sun, Nov 29 2015, 4:39 pm
treestump wrote: | If I could only dig up my dusty HS notes on Eishes Chayil, I could cite hundreds of sources... Though I strongly suspect most of them were mangled, twisted and reshaped.
It was drilled into our heads over and over again, by almost every teacher, that our job was to be submissive and obedient to our husbands, that they had to make every spiritual decision, and that the only times we were allowed to express a different opinion was if he was making the wrong spiritual choice.
But then again, many of my teachers were chassidish, so that might have had something to do with it... My chassidish friends are generally more of the 'husband is authority/leader' mentality.
Thankfully, I don't have that kind of marriage. |
You said it!
My dh was actually the one to set me straight on that.
When we were first married, I once complained that I was tired. He said "so go to sleep".
I went to bed in tears, because I had so much to do, but I knew I had to listen to him.
Boy, did he talk all that stuff out of me quick!
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Laiya
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Sun, Nov 29 2015, 4:44 pm
treestump wrote: | If I could only dig up my dusty HS notes on Eishes Chayil, I could cite hundreds of sources... Though I strongly suspect most of them were mangled, twisted and reshaped.
It was drilled into our heads over and over again, by almost every teacher, that our job was to be submissive and obedient to our husbands, that they had to make every spiritual decision, and that the only times we were allowed to express a different opinion was if he was making the wrong spiritual choice.
But then again, many of my teachers were chassidish, so that might have had something to do with it... My chassidish friends are generally more of the 'husband is authority/leader' mentality.
Thankfully, I don't have that kind of marriage. |
I went to BY, was never taught this. Did learn what Pink Fridge quoted, and Zaq, about being ezer k'negdo, etc.
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grace413
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Sun, Nov 29 2015, 4:53 pm
Dolly Welsh wrote: |
There is a case in the news now, about some guy whose girlfriend copped a fit after birth, gave the baby up for adoption without his consent, and he is trying to get his child. He sort of has got her, because the adopting couple were nice enough to involve him, or something.
As the infant girl's parents weren't even legally married at all, a lot is murky. Is he the father, anyway? Tests for that aren't always fool proof. Can the woman do what she wants with her own kid if there's no legal marriage framework?
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You are incorrect. DNA test can prove paternity with over a 99% certainty. Biological fathers' rights are independent of marital status to the biological mother. Finalized adoptions have been overturned because the bio mother hid the info from the bio father. Extensive investigation is done to contact any potential birthfather.
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treestump
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Sun, Nov 29 2015, 4:55 pm
It depends on the culture and mentality of your school...
I was never taught this in sem either, rather that a wife is an empowered partner, but in high school, boy did we get it over the head...
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mirror
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Sun, Nov 29 2015, 5:40 pm
treestump wrote: | It depends on the culture and mentality of your school...
I was never taught this in sem either, rather that a wife is an empowered partner, but in high school, boy did we get it over the head... |
Why don't you contact girls in your neighborhood and ask for their notes. I am sure you are not the only girl who was taught this.
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amother
Wine
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Sun, Nov 29 2015, 8:11 pm
אשה כשרה עושה רצון בעלה
גמרא
And in rambam
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gold21
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Sun, Nov 29 2015, 8:28 pm
With regard to the phrase "Isha Kesheira Oseh Ritzon Baalah" , I have heard it here and there, though I haven't heard it referenced often. I don't personally know many (or rather, any) people who abide by that principle.
I will just comment that I have noticed that there are loopholes available for various halachic obligations. for example, there are loopholes, that many people rely on, for the responsibility of a man to work and support his wife financially as per the kesubah (hence the kollel system).
and there are many loopholes out there for many things- im sure we can all come up with a couple if we try
so, I am sure that loopholes exist for this concept as well
I think that in todays society, "obeying" ones husband is not a good strategy for a good marriage
personally, I was not taught to "obey" my husband, and my husband did not want a wife that "obeyed" him- he expected a give and take relationship, as I did, so we are on the same page B"H
so I guess technically I may be relying on halachic loopholes- though I dont know for sure, since I was never taught to "obey" in the first place- I think that concept is more commonly taught in more chassidish circles possibly? any chassidish women can confirm or correct me?
Last edited by gold21 on Sun, Nov 29 2015, 11:10 pm; edited 4 times in total
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yksraya
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Sun, Nov 29 2015, 8:35 pm
The deffinition of isha keshera..... does not refer to "obeying" it means when one knows her dh likes something or really dislikes something she is an isha kesheira if she does what pleases him. It does not refer to a dh that demands and a wife who lets herself become a doormat.
It just basically means that if you do grocery shopping and know ur dh really likes to have rugelech in freezer, so you buy that pack of rugelech, and you know your dh dislike lets say eggplant so you cook something else for him for dinner (you can still cook the eggplant for yourself)etc.
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amother
Salmon
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Sun, Nov 29 2015, 8:41 pm
yksraya, did you read every interpretation of "isha keshera..." how do you some authorities do not interpret it to mean about husbands being the authority....which is what this thread is about.
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amother
Wine
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Sun, Nov 29 2015, 8:44 pm
Yksraya-
Do you really think that's what the Gemara meant?
Would that be rashi's pshat or some others pirush?
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yksraya
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Sun, Nov 29 2015, 8:45 pm
amother wrote: | yksraya, did you read every interpretation of "isha keshera..." how do you some authorities do not interpret it to mean about husbands being the authority....which is what this thread is about. |
isha kesheira means a trully good wife, it is not halacha.
You can interpret isha kesheira however way you want to interpret it, yet it will not change the fact that the torah does not tell us "a woman MUST obey her dh".
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yksraya
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Sun, Nov 29 2015, 8:48 pm
amother wrote: | Yksraya-
Do you really think that's what the Gemara meant?
Would that be rashi's pshat or some others pirush? |
Do you think the gemara meant that a dh should abuse his wife and demand all kinds of crazy and she needs to OBEY bec isha kesheira......?
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eschaya
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Sun, Nov 29 2015, 8:49 pm
Nope. Perhaps in a society that was this would have been appropriate, but not today. Anyway, even if there were a halachic basis for it, any husband who learns in kollel and allows/demands of his wife to take on his curse of b'zeas appecha tochal lechem has forfeited his right to any hypothetical benefits of maleness. (not kollel bashing btw - dh learned for many years)
Again, like many posters before me, I did get hit over the head with the "isha k'sheira" concept often during HS and seminary. And the "if you make him King he will treat you like a queen" line. Cliche, much. Because show me a man who actually understands the inner needs and wants of a woman on his own and I will show you a unicorn.
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yksraya
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Sun, Nov 29 2015, 8:54 pm
eschaya wrote: | Nope. Perhaps in a society that was this would have been appropriate, but not today. Anyway, even if there were a halachic basis for it, any husband who learns in kollel and allows/demands of his wife to take on his curse of b'zeas appecha tochal lechem has forfeited his right to any hypothetical benefits of maleness. (not kollel bashing btw - dh learned for many years)
Again, like many posters before me, I did get hit over the head with the "isha k'sheira" concept often during HS and seminary. And the "if you make him King he will treat you like a queen" line. Cliche, much. Because show me a man who actually understands the inner needs and wants of a woman on his own and I will show you a unicorn. |
ppl have the "make him as a king and you'll be a queen" saying all wrong.
make him feel like a king means show him you love him and respect him and give him his space and trust him. don't demand of him, don't be on top of him like "go daven" go learning" etc, and he will feel like a king.
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Maya
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Sun, Nov 29 2015, 8:58 pm
If someone treats their husband like a king, how do they themselves expect to be treated, as queens? I'm curious what that actually means to those who adopt this ideology.
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