Do you believe that a wife has to obey her husband?

yksraya

Sun, Nov 29 2015, 6:02 pm

Maya wrote:

If someone treats their husband like a king, how do they themselves expect to be treated, as queens? I'm curious what that actually means to those who adopt this ideology.

it basically means that if a wife wants to be queen she can't treat her dh like dirt.

Yet in a healthy marriage if a dh feels loved and respected he will reciprocate, so maybe that's what it means.

mommy3b2c

Sun, Nov 29 2015, 6:06 pm

Maya wrote:

If someone treats their husband like a king, how do they themselves expect to be treated, as queens? I'm curious what that actually means to those who adopt this ideology.

All that saying means is treat your husband with love and respect and then he will treat you with love and respect. With normal, healthy people, that is what generally happens.

It doesn't actually mean that you should crown him and grovel at his feet. But I'm sure you know that already.

PinkFridge

Sun, Nov 29 2015, 6:23 pm

eschaya wrote:

Nope. Perhaps in a society that was this would have been appropriate, but not today. Anyway, even if there were a halachic basis for it, any husband who learns in kollel and allows/demands of his wife to take on his curse of b'zeas appecha tochal lechem has forfeited his right to any hypothetical benefits of maleness. (not kollel bashing btw - dh learned for many years)
Again, like many posters before me, I did get hit over the head with the "isha k'sheira" concept often during HS and seminary. And the "if you make him King he will treat you like a queen" line. Cliche, much. Because show me a man who actually understands the inner needs and wants of a woman on his own and I will show you a unicorn.

Phil Donahue.
Where's my unicorn? Tongue Out

trixx

Sun, Nov 29 2015, 6:26 pm

Simple1 wrote:

I've seen mentioned "The Surrendered Wife". Maybe I read the comments wrong, but it seemed like it was asking the wife to be obedient in a way that's not my style.

Otherwise in a healthy marriage, both partners should try to accommodate each other's needs and wants when possible and if it's reasonable to do so..

"The Surrendered Wife" is a controversial title (on purpose) but the content of the book is wonderfully straightforward and in line with Torah thinking. It basically shows you how to not nag your husband lol. It also shows that when you act like a mekabel, your husband will be a mashpia (this is where the Torah thinking comes in) ie if you make yourself receptive to his help (by not nagging but by saying something like, I'm so tired and I would love for you to take care of me by doing the dishes) he will step up because by nature a healthy man wants to be able to provide for his wife. (The mashpia-mekabel relationship is evident in the very first step of the chasuna where he covers you with a veil and you are being "relinquished" to him halachically, and also when he is already standing under the chuppah and you join him there - submitting to him, halachically.)

Anyways all of the above was just to point out that the book does NOT suggest at all that a woman become obedient. In fact it very cleverly shows in many examples how the woman is still able to get what she wants, by having the husband do it.

Which leads me to this..

amother wrote:

אשה כשרה עושה רצון בעלה

גמרא
And in rambam

The interpretation I learned was: "a proper woman [who is she? someone who] creates the will of the husband"
convincing the husband that this is what he wants. (and on an even deeper and more ultimate level, CREATING in him the desire, making it so that he actually WANTS to learn/do good/whatever)

for example, the wife of Korach convinced him to instigate and that was their downfall, as Rashi says there, "a wise woman builds her house and a foolish woman destroys it". vs the wife of On ben Peles convinced him not to rebel and they were blessed.

This is also where the binah yeseira (I believe) comes in - guiding your husband to do something so that he thinks it was his idea all along and still feels like he has authority in the home. (I am NOT suggesting manipulating - more like planting the idea in his head, or what is called being "surrendered". for example, just off the top of my head, a "non-surrendered" wife will nag her husband that they aren't intimate enough. a "surrendered" wife will put on lingerie, lie down on bed and see how fast her husband reacts (not stating the effectiveness of this just stating the mindset behind these behaviors), or nagging to pay bills vs putting the bills on top of his computer and telling him, "you're so much better at tracking the finances")

this is also her explanation for treating him like king and he'll treat you like queen - shower him with love and respect and a normal, healthy man will dote on his wife in return

Edited to clarify,
I do NOT believe that a woman "must obey" her husband... in fact I am the one who wears the pants as dh will proudly say lol. Your husband is not G-d and you don't HAVE to listen to him. but you should have a normal healthy relationship and a) WANT to listen to him b) Trust that he has good advice to give you which is why he's talking
also it is very important for a man to feel like he is the authority in his own home, so don't argue/fight/disagree in front of others, and relinquish control (be "surrendered") as much as you can. The theory is that if you pass the ball to him, he's totally capable to catch it running. and ofc on a practical level, many people adopt their husband's rav/minhagim/Pesach chumros

PinkFridge

Sun, Nov 29 2015, 6:53 pm

From what I'm hearing of The Surrendered Wife, it sounds like a fantastic tool under certain conditions. It also sounds like there's some manipulation involved, but I'm not totally sure.

dancingqueen

Sun, Nov 29 2015, 7:00 pm

amother wrote:

אשה כשרה עושה רצון בעלה

גמרא
And in rambam

Things written in the Gemara or rambam are not necessarily Halacha, and were written in very different socioeconomic times.

yksraya

Sun, Nov 29 2015, 7:01 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

From what I'm hearing of The Surrendered Wife, it sounds like a fantastic tool under certain conditions. It also sounds like there's some manipulation involved, but I'm not totally sure.

I've heard this book is only recomended to ppl in healthy marriages and not if a dh is abusive.

dancingqueen

Sun, Nov 29 2015, 7:04 pm

Maya wrote:

If someone treats their husband like a king, how do they themselves expect to be treated, as queens? I'm curious what that actually means to those who adopt this ideology.

Historically, Kings haven't treated their queens that well. Even aside from Henry the 8th who was especially brutal, it was expected that they would have many mistresses etc.

trixx

Sun, Nov 29 2015, 7:20 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

From what I'm hearing of The Surrendered Wife, it sounds like a fantastic tool under certain conditions. It also sounds like there's some manipulation involved, but I'm not totally sure.

Having read the book, I would recommend it to any (healthy, not abusive) marriage. 0 manipulation involved. It's just a slightly different communication approach.

treestump

Sun, Nov 29 2015, 7:36 pm

Devoirie wrote:

Why don't you contact girls in your neighborhood and ask for their notes. I am sure you are not the only girl who was taught this.

Okay, so while I didn't ask my old classmates for their (nonexistent by now, I'm sure) notes, I did remember one thing we kept learning-

There's a story somewhere in the Talmud (at least I think it was the talmud because it was Aramaic) about a woman who bashes a sage over the head with candlesticks or something, because her husband was from a different land and spoke a foreign language, and asked her to do something (cook eggs, maybe?) and she misunderstood. She was really mortified to do what her husband asked her to do but being that she was a proper Jewish wife, she obeyed. The sage blessed her with righteous children as a reward.

Okay, so my memory's really scanty about the exact details, but I do remember at least two teachers bringing this story and using it to explain to us the extent to which we had to obey our husbands.

Another thing- whenever there was a story of a woman w the middah of vatranus- like Rochel, it was almost always a springboard to discussing how a woman should always be mevater to her husband, etc.

zaq

Sun, Nov 29 2015, 7:44 pm

Seems to me that Akiva davka obeyed his wife. SHE told HIM to go study.

Tablepoetry

Sun, Nov 29 2015, 8:30 pm

dancingqueen wrote:

Historically, Kings haven't treated their queens that well. Even aside from Henry the 8th who was especially brutal, it was expected that they would have many mistresses etc.

This. I don't understand the idealization of the king-queen model. In all of history, practically, (exceptions prove the rule), the king has had the upper hand. He definitely had a lot more power than the queen.

Why would I strive to make my husband 'king', in order to become the second in hierarchy?

Besides, the whole comparison is off. Queens don't do the kind of dirty work that would be required to make a non-royal husband feel like he is king (say, cleaning the toilets).

treestump

Sun, Nov 29 2015, 8:47 pm

Same with the tznius "you are a princess" cliche... Many tiresome cliched expressions we were reared with don't make too much sense once you start thinking about the real life application.

amother

Scarlet

Sun, Nov 29 2015, 9:32 pm

No. If I had my children and I would be even worse off than we already are from doing things his way most of the time.

Chloe

Sun, Nov 29 2015, 9:46 pm

treestump wrote:

If I could only dig up my dusty HS notes on Eishes Chayil, I could cite hundreds of sources... Though I strongly suspect most of them were mangled, twisted and reshaped.
It was drilled into our heads over and over again, by almost every teacher, that our job was to be submissive and obedient to our husbands, that they had to make every spiritual decision, and that the only times we were allowed to express a different opinion was if he was making the wrong spiritual choice.
But then again, many of my teachers were chassidish, so that might have had something to do with it... My chassidish friends are generally more of the 'husband is authority/leader' mentality.
Thankfully, I don't have that kind of marriage.

I think only in a spiritual sense.

imasoftov

Mon, Nov 30 2015, 3:38 am

amother wrote:

אשה כשרה עושה רצון בעלה

גמרא
And in rambam

Wow, that's just so helpful! I'll go read the entire gemara right after I log off.

imasoftov

Mon, Nov 30 2015, 3:38 am

shoshana2 wrote:

When I make my husband king he makes me queen. If that's not happening then it may not be a healthy marriage.

My marriage is not a monarchy.

pointyshoes

Mon, Nov 30 2015, 3:50 am

Dh respects my opinion and I respect his. We hear each other out and have a discussion. We reach a conclusion of what would be the best course of action together.
Why would any healthy relationship be one person dictating to the other? If we dont know what to do, well ask our rabbi

amother

Red

Mon, Nov 30 2015, 5:58 am

I didnt read through the whole thread but I do want to point out in terms of isha kisheira osa retzon baalah, Reb. Bylu Zaks teaches it as - who is a isha kisheira, one WHO MAKES HER HUSBAND DESIRE HER. Osa the retzon of her baalah.

Anon bc ive shared this alot irl

amother

Brunette

Mon, Nov 30 2015, 11:04 am

amother wrote:

אשה כשרה עושה רצון בעלה

גמרא

Many people misunderstand the context of this statement. This is said in the Gemara/Midrash specifically as a comment on what Yael did. Yael's husband had a peace treaty with Sisera. When Sisera was killing the Jews, he ran away and passed Yael's tent. She gave him milk in a nice container, seeming to be hospitable. The milk helped him to fall asleep. When he was asleep, she took the pins from the tent and drove it deep into his temple, killing him. She is praised in Shiras Devorah for doing this. The Gemara comments on Yael, the above statement about Isha Kisheira Oseh Ritzon Baalah.
She definitely was not "obeying" what her husband said. He had a peace treaty that he was not allowed to kill Sisera. but she understood that since Sisera was killing the Jews, the peace treaty was invalid, and that her husband would have wanted her to kill him. So it does not say she is praised for listening to what her husband SAID but rather to what she knew he would have wanted (his Ratzon). She is praised for doing something which seems to be directly against what her husband had said, but she knew was really what he would have wanted.

See Rabbi Abraham J Twerski's book, "The Shame Bourne in Silence".

I also did a google search and found this quoted and elaborated here:

"A kosher (decent) woman is one who complies with her husband?s will.[26]

This statement is cited in the Midrash. It should be immediately apparent that it must have limitations. For example, if a husband were to tell his wife to cook something for him on the Sabbath, she would certainly not be permitted to do so. Doing the will of a husband may not be used to violate any Torah commandment, nor may it be used to violate any Torah ethic. We have already noted the high standards provided by the Torah for respecting one?s wife and that the husband is cautioned to assiduously avoid upsetting or irritating her. The statement of ?doing the will of the husband? may therefore not be used as a way to violate the Torah requirement for respect of the wife.

The principle ?The ways of Torah are pleasant?[27] is applied in the Talmud to Jewish Law[28], to rule out practices that would be incompatible with this principle. Tyranny in the household is abominable, and there is no way the Torah would condone this. Anyone using this Midrashic statement to oppress his wife is distorting Torah, not complying with it. But what then is the meaning of the phrase? The context is most important. The Midrash is discussing the heroism of Yael, the wife of Hever, who saved Israel in a crucial battle by killing the enemy general, Sisera. Scripture tells how she lured Sisera into her tent, gave him milk to drink which caused him to become drowsy, and when he fell asleep, she drove a stake from her tent into his head. It is upon this episode that the Midrash comments that Yael was a decent woman who did the bidding of her husband. What is the relevance of this statement to Yael? The commentary Meam Loez states that Yael?s husband, Hever, had a peace agreement with Sisera. If so, then Yael?s action was a clear defiance of her husband?s will rather than compliance! Yael?s heroism consisted of taking the necessary action to save Israel, even though she could have chosen to remain neutral because of her husband?s pact with Sisera. She could have remained within her tent and minded her own business. However, Yael understood that Hever?s pact with Sisera was nullified by Sisera when he went to war against Israel, and that the will of her husband was really that she should destroy Sisera if she had the opportunity. It was for this reason and in this context that Yael was praised for understanding what Hever would have wanted.

At any rate, the phrase ?A kosher woman is one who abides by her husband?s will? is not to be distorted to support tyranny. Such distortion constitutes Torah abuse as well as wife abuse. Exploiting this phrase to justify physical, s-xual, or emotional abuse is a gross violation of Torah.

" https://rabbisite.wordpress.co.....view/