What a parsha... | Imamother

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What a parsha...

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amother

Forestgreen

Sat, Dec 05 2015, 8:15 pm

I don't want to sound like an apikores. I am frum from birth and went to bais yackov. Am I the only one who notices and feels that many stories on the Torah are kind of horrible and Immoral? This week we have yosef antagonizing his brothers who already hate him. After considering killing him they sell him to some foreigners? Yikes! That's seems pretty low. Then yehuda picks up a harlot and gets her pregnant. These are men who were the sons of the avos. I'm sure there are 1000 answers, but the question always seems stronger than the answer.

5mom

Sat, Dec 05 2015, 8:27 pm

Anyone can feel jealousy or lust. It's how you deal afterwards that makes a person great. Yehuda had the strength to admit his sin in public. The brothers eventually do teshuva (though we don't know if they ever told Yaakov Avinu what they did).

The Chumash is not made up of sanitized "gedolim stories.". Hashem trusts us with the truth.

amother

Royalblue

Sat, Dec 05 2015, 8:37 pm

I was thinking about this today. Particularly I was thinking about Yaakov showing such favoritism to Yosef. As a mother I don't really get the idea of having a favorite. I don't have a favorite. But if I did I would like to think I had the good sense not to be obvious about it and create or feed envy among my kids.

So, so, so many questions about the behaviors of tzadikim that seem so obviously off to even the most simple person like myself. I hope to one day have some understanding.

zaq

Sat, Dec 05 2015, 8:47 pm

We have tzadikim, not saints. The Torah shows us warts and all. The lesson to be taken from this is that we can strive to emulate them, because they were not perfect but entirely human with human frailties. At the same time they managed to be spiritual giants. We can learn from both their greatness and their mistakes.

singleagain

Sat, Dec 05 2015, 8:52 pm

amother wrote:

As a mother I don't really get the idea of having a favorite. I don't have a favorite. But if I did I would like to think I had the good sense not to be obvious about it and create or feed envy among my kids.

a little off topic: but as a kid, I remember sometimes feeling like my parents were playing favorites even though they weren't. so just something to be aware of, that perception of your child might be different than the reality.

smss

Sat, Dec 05 2015, 8:54 pm

The place to start with the Avos is always אם הם כמלאכים אנו כבני אדם, אם הם כבני אדם אנו כחמורים.

Meaning that if we view them as malachim, in other words far too holy for us to ever really understand, then we are thinking like rational humans- I.e. correctly. If we view them as regular people, we are thinking like donkeys- I.e. foolishly.

I also was disturbed by many parts of this parsha this year, not sure why I never thought too deeply into it before, but now I have a lot of questions which I'd love to really get into and research.

One thought on the inyan with the brothers, which DH told me- the brothers believed that Yosef was a spiritual danger to them. They thought he wanted to get Yaakov to do to them what Avraham did to Yishmael- kick them out so that he, and not they, would be the spiritual continuation of Klal Yisroel. They convened a Beis Din and judged that he was a spiritual rodef and thus chayav misa.

The incident with Yehuda and Tamar is also very deep though I learned it too long ago to remember now.

Lots of fascinating questions.

5mom

Sat, Dec 05 2015, 9:00 pm

You are right that we need to treat the Avos with awe. We also need to take into account that Hashem chose to share these stories with us. Why doesn't the Torah skip the messy bits and just tell us how all the tzaddikim lived happily ever after? Because the messy bits matter. They give us vital lessons that we can't learn from whitewashing the truth.

trixx

Sat, Dec 05 2015, 9:10 pm

These parshios can not be learned at pshat level or you will make a grave mistake and judge them. "horrible and immoral" to which standards? Yours? Society?

First of all, pirkei avos says don't judge someone until you have reached their place. As a later generation we may not judge prior ones. Also anyone who says David sinned (with batsheva) is a fool. The language of the chumash in pshat is not the level at which to understand these stories. You must either go to even remez or drash but ideally sod.

Did you read the midrash says? Start there. And for deeper more satisfying answers head to chabad.org

The brothers held a Bais din and held yosef liable bc he told loshon hara about them and accused them of something that would make them chayav misah (he thought they were eating live meat which bnei noach are liable to death, bnei yisroel arent). So this is just one deeper aspect. Also this whole series of events had to happen so that mitzrayim could happen.

The story of Yehuda and Tamar is not just "some harlot" but a very powerful story that is the first time the neshama of Moshiach comes into the world. Tamar knew thru ruach hakodesh that she is supposed to have a great descendant, 2 of her husbands died on her and her father in law is withholding her rightful 3rd husband, time to take things into her own hands. By halacha it wasn't even prostitution, she went to mikva first, and he asked her if she is a taken woman and she said no, so he was allowed to sleep with her. And we see from the later events how special both of them were. He admitted in public and she refused to shame him publicly. Peretz becomes the forebear of Moshiach. Every time a further neshama of Moshiach comes into the world it is thru "scandal" so as to confuse Satan. (Peretz, David and batsheva, Rus and boaz)

It's OK to have questions. Just realize that you do indeed have a question and then seek to find the answer. Again, if the pshat level doesn't make sense to you, it's because you are ready to hear a deeper explanation. Dont fall back on the childish "omg the torah is crazy sketchy" attitude. Keep learning.

lifesagift

Sat, Dec 05 2015, 9:27 pm

It seems like the avos lived in a time which Shakespeare might've called salad days of youth. They were strong, passionate... Yet we, the old age generation, have the advantage of a Mondays quarterback. Or course we know better than to pick favorites... This story's been repeated for thousands of years! We should know better. The story of Kayin, as sinister as it seems, may have happened to a clueless lad

amother

Amethyst

Sat, Dec 05 2015, 9:32 pm

Let's not be in denial. We all have kids that are easier to love than other. Our job is not to show it out.

water_bear88

Sat, Dec 05 2015, 10:04 pm

I liked the explanation in the main dvar Torah in this week's Torah Tidbits: http://www.ttidbits.com/

Quote:

It's like Absolute Value

A quick review for those who may have forgotten a little of the math they learned way back when. The absolute value of a number is its numeric value without regard to sign. The absolute value of +8 is 8 and the absolute value of -5 is 5.

If we were to assign a value to lessons from the Torah, Avraham Avinu excelled in Hachnasat Orchim. Let's call that a +10. Playing favorites with children backfired on Yaakov Avinu (in this week's sedra).

Let's call that -10. Our challenge is to grow with the absolute values of the lessons in the Torah from which we can learn. That means becoming a 10 in Hachnasat Orchim and becoming a 10 in NOT favoring one child over others.

No connection to the Avot - if a person who suffered from a parent with an alcohol problem becomes an alcoholic himself, then he picked up (intentionally or otherwise) a negative trait. But if he does not become an alcoholic and if he develops a sensitivity to those with the problem and works to help others... then he has learned a lesson in life using the Absolute Value concept.

The enmity of Yosef's brothers towards him, its causes, and its results all echo throughout Jewish History until this very day.
And the problems of Yosef and his brothers are alive and well in the Chanuka story, as well.
However well the Chashmona'im succeeded against our enemies from the outside - the Greeks, they did not fare as well with the internal strife that plagued the Jewish world at the time - the Traditionalist vs the Hellenists (for lack of better terms).

Fighting for Torah and Mitzvot and living a life of Torah and Mitzvot are obvious positive lessons to be learned from the Chanuka story.
Fighting against our enemies and saving the Jewish People physically and spiritually are also obvious positive lessons we have learned and must continue to act upon when called for.
But we must also learn the lessons of Yosef and his brothers and of the Mityavnim in a positive way, as well. Hence, the Absolute Value idea.

We have so many factors that divide us. Without assigning value-numbers to the following splits within our people, and without suggesting that one approach can work for all of them - we must face what is wrong within the Jewish world and we must seek positive, constructive methods to deal with them.

Ashkenazim and S'faradim. Religious Zionists and religious non- (and anti-) Zionists, secular and religious, Orthodox and non-Orthodox. Chassidim and Mitnagdim. Friction from one chassidic sect to another. Friction within one chassidic sect. Political right and political left. Sad to say, this is only a partial list.

There are no simple solutions to most of what ails us. But anger and violence are not the way to go.

Perhaps, we need to really understand the meaning of ATEM NITZAVIM HAYOM KULCHEM... And the meaning of D'RACHEHA DARCHEI NOAM...

etky

Sun, Dec 06 2015, 5:10 am

Plenty of classical mefarshim based their commentary heavily on the pshat: Rashbam, Ibn Ezra, Ramban and Radak, and later Abarbanel and Malbim.
The school of thought that views the Avot and other lofty biblical figures as irreproachable -based on midrashic interpretations of their actions - is but one way of approaching tanach.
Even amongst chazal there were other, more critical approaches.
Getting back to parshat Vayeshev, yes, it's a harrowing tale of extreme emotions and actions: overwhelming parental love, jealousy, rivalries, deceit, lust and bloodlust. The action does not let up for a second and the scene keeps shifting: from Hevron to the pastures of Shechem, down to the Shefela where the Yehuda and Tamar story takes place, then to Egypt - first to Potiphar's estate and then to the prison where Yosef is incarcerated. Then there is the crazy zig-zag of Yosef's fortunes; from favored son to being left by his brothers to die in the pit , then sold to Potiphar where he rises once again to prominence and then again cast into the pit.
I think that the main theme of the parsha, is that behind all these seemingly random twists of fate and human connivances, is an overall Divine plan for Bnei Ya'acov and for their descendents, Am Yisrael. This conception, and the awareness of Hashem's involvement in his own fate is expressed by a more mature and wiser Yosef later on in parshat Vayigash when he reveals himself to his brothers after the impassioned plea of Yehuda, who has meanwhile also achieved a higher level of maturity and sense of personal responsibility through his own experiences.

Ema of 5

Sun, Dec 06 2015, 5:26 am

smss wrote:

That's not the way I learned that AT ALL!!
We are clearly not on the same level as the Avos and shvatim, nor anyone else who came before us. If we look at these great people as Malachim, meaning perfect, then we (and our actions) are on the level of humans. If we look at them as humans (meaning they are capable of sins) then how much lowlier we and OUr sins must be. Meaning we can't judge them, because we are not on their level, and they are so much greater than us no matter what level they are on. It's not about how we view them in judgement, it's about how we view ourselves in comparison to them.

Ema of 5

Sun, Dec 06 2015, 5:43 am

trixx wrote:

The Torah doesn't even view her in a negative light. She is called a kidosha (or maybe it's kideisha, I don't remember the nekudos)

amother

Royalblue

Sun, Dec 06 2015, 5:49 am

amother wrote:

Let's not be in denial. We all have kids that are easier to love than other. Our job is not to show it out.

Easier to like, yes. At times. Easier to love? I have never felt this way B"H.

etky

Sun, Dec 06 2015, 5:51 am

eema of 3 wrote:

The Torah doesn't even view her in a negative light. She is called a kidosha (or maybe it's kideisha, I don't remember the nekudos)

Kedesha is just a softer word for harlot really since a kedesha enjoyed a certain social status while simple harlots were very low on the social scale.
A kedesha has relations with random men as part of a cultic ritual while a harlot did the same just for personal profit.

Ema of 5

Sun, Dec 06 2015, 5:54 am

etky wrote:

The Torah has no problem using the word zona. And I don't recall anyone else being called a kedeisha. But I could be wrong.

Ema of 5

Sun, Dec 06 2015, 5:55 am

amother wrote:

Easier to like, yes. At times. Easier to love? I have never felt this way B"H.

This this this, a million times over!!!! There are plenty of times when I don't like my husband, children, parents, etc. but there has never been a time when I didn't love them.

etky

Sun, Dec 06 2015, 6:09 am

eema of 3 wrote:

The Torah has no problem using the word zona. And I don't recall anyone else being called a kedeisha. But I could be wrong.

When Yehuda first visits Tamar he takes her for a "zona" - a simple harlot.
When he comes back to look for her to and asks around, he refers to her as a "kedesha".
One perush that I am familiar with is that he was embarrased to admit he had visited a zona and wanted to cloak his interaction with her with a veil of spirituality.
The Torah enjoins us, in sefer Devarim - לא תהיה קדשה מבנות ישראל
It is a double prohibition- promiscuity and avoda zara.
The term appear multiple times in the neviim and ketuvim in the contextof forbidden forms of avoda zara.

PinkFridge

Sun, Dec 06 2015, 6:28 am

amother wrote:

OP, I assume you've learned all the classic explanations:
Yaakov favoring Yosef: see the Stone Chumash, which says that because of the resemblance, Yaakov thought Yosef would be the one carrying on his mission (IIRC, skimming between aliyos.)
The shevatim selling Yosef: they had a beis din, considered him a rodef, are called to task somewhat, hence the tragedy of the Asarah Harugei Malchus.
Yehuda and Tamar: one of the necessary episodes bring Moshiach into the world, including Lot and his daughters and Dovid and Batsheva, and why it had to be done in a murky way, like hiding diamonds under a wagon of hay, or worse.

Yes, it's hard to conceptualize that these are the Shivtei Kah. But OTOH, there must be explanations because if everything was to be taken purely literally, without interpretation, there would be no way that they should deserve not to be drummed out as were Yishmael and Esav. But the mittah of Yaakov was shleima, and they were worthy, all of them, of being part of Klal Yisrael.

From what I've seen of Rabbi David Fohrman, I suspect you'd really enjoy his take on Tanach. He is ingenious in his understanding of pshat. His website is www.alphabeta.org. I believe people get to hear samples and then subscribe for more. I don't know how much it costs and will not tell you to spend your money, but his approach may really work for you.

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