So much talk of parental abuse here.. Holocaust generation.

amother

Thu, Mar 22 2007, 11:58 am

So much talk of parental abuse here....How mothers here feel their mothers were insane and caused many/all of their problems....

I always wondered HOW HASHEM EXPECTED THE POST HOLOCAUST GENERATION TO RAISE NORMAL CHILDREN, IF THEY WERE SO DAMAGED PHYSICALLY AND EMOTIONALLY?????????????????????????????? HASHEM IS OUR FATHER AND LOOK WHAT GOT HEAPED ON THAT GENERATION of His Favorite Children ( HU Bochar Banu Mikal Ha'amim).

Who are we to complain?

BTW, 20 years down the line, too many of us here, who think we're wonderful, loving, caring, giving mothers, will unfortunately be labeled abusive by our children, and the source of all their problems. Without question!

amother

Thu, Mar 22 2007, 12:16 pm

I don't see how that helps anyone who sadly enough had to keep thier children away from their grandparens.

greenfire

Thu, Mar 22 2007, 12:25 pm

amother wrote:

I hear you!!!

Oh and my teens already do that ...go figure...

gryp

Thu, Mar 22 2007, 12:48 pm

If you read some of these posts, it's obvious that there is parental abuse going on. Settled married women have the ability to be objective about situations they were in unlike young teenagers.

(Side point: Did anyone hear that horrific news story of a foster mother who abused the three boys she was supposed to be taking care of? Crying

)

My parents were born after the Holocaust and are second and third generation Americans. They didn't endure anything physically. It has nothing to do with the way they parent. I guess you're nowhere near my age group.

amother

Thu, Mar 22 2007, 12:55 pm

Imagine that you’re in a canoe with a friend and there’s a fork in the river. Your friend convinces you to take the channel on the right. Next thing you know, you hear the roar of a waterfall. What do you do? Do you start yelling at your friend? Of course not! It’s counterproductive. You paddle like crazy for shore! Let’s say you make it. Now do you start screaming? That’s what a lot of people would do. But why? Blame solves nothing. It’s counterproductive. Irrelevant.

When you’re in the middle of a life-threatening situation, you naturally ignore blame. It’s a survival instinct. But life itself is the ultimate life-threatening situation, because all life ends. You are headed for certain death, now and every moment of your life. The same instinct to ignore blame should apply. But it doesn’t. We take the finite, wondrous accident of our own existence for granted and act as if we can play self-destructive blame games forever. We pity ourselves and hate those who have hurt us. We hold grudges, sometimes seek revenge, take secret pleasure in the suffering of those we blame - and feel totally justified.

Worse still, we commonly withhold our love from the people who have helped us the most - our parents - usually because with all that help, there was some hurt, too. We label our parents with terms such as “dysfunctional,” “toxic,” and “emotionally abusive,” and allow these labels to influence not just our feelings, but our very memories, sometimes so much that we begin to rewrite history. Anything outside the label fades in our recollection, to the point where it may as well have never happened. In the name of healing and self-discovery, we ignore the greatest gifts of love we’ve ever been given.

Some parents really are abusive. But the vast majority is just imperfect people who make about the same number of mistakes parenting as they do in the other aspects of their lives. Even so, the very foundation of modern clinical psychology is grounded upon blaming parents for the problems of their adult children. Even parents, though, are not at the top of the list of those we blame. Virtually all people have the same favorite target: themselves. Even people who don’t blame others often blame themselves. It feels tough and strong to blame yourself. But it’s the opposite.

It’s not a sign of strength, but of fear. When you run into difficulties and take the fork in the road that leads to fear, a natural reaction is to blame yourself. Fear needs a bad guy, just as rescue needs a hero. When you blame yourself, all you do is reinforce fear. You convince yourself that your worst dread is real: You’re not good enough! When you believe this, the wound you create becomes a huge emotional drain. It’s as if a psychological artery has been severed, causing you to bleed out, until your personal power has been drained.

Even as this happens, though, many people are still proud of themselves, thinking that they are taking responsibility. Blame isn’t responsibility. Responsibility is about using personal power and making changes. Blame is about sabotaging personal power and staying frozen in fear. Responsibility is a call to action; blame is a call to anger. Action solves problems; anger solves nothing. Anger is just fear wearing the mask of aggression. Because blame is inspired by fear, the strongest force against it is love. When your heart is focused on love, you don’t indulge in blame.

gryp

Thu, Mar 22 2007, 12:58 pm

Perhaps yes, perhaps no.

bashinda

Thu, Mar 22 2007, 12:59 pm

Was the abuse foster story a Jewish family?

I knew about the one in Jersey who weren't Jewish who mamesh starved the kids so their development was stunted,
shock

Unfortunately abuse of all types happens in Jewish homes.

gryp

Thu, Mar 22 2007, 1:02 pm

No, it wasn't a Jewish family. The foster mother was just plain evil. She forced the kids to eat dishwash soap, rat droppings, and a whole bunch of other garbage. She kept one kid in a wheelchair so she can collect more for the disability. It was just a horrifying story, like when you think it can't be real, but it is. Confused

amother

Thu, Mar 22 2007, 1:03 pm

GR wrote:

My parents were born after the Holocaust and are second and third generation Americans. They didn't endure anything physically. It has nothing to do with the way they parent. I guess you're nowhere near my age group.

In places where there's much European Jewish ancestry, like Brooklyn, I can tell you that many of my classmates say they were definitely affected by their parents (firsthand) or grandparents (secondhand) having suffered the ills of the Holocaust, either having been brought up by tortured Holocaust survivors or by children of tortured Holocaust survivors, who suffered as a consequence, one way or another, in varying degrees.

amother

Thu, Mar 22 2007, 1:05 pm

GR wrote:

Perhaps yes, perhaps no.

People have the choice of what to fixate on, positive or negative events in their lives. Yes, there are extreme cases, though.

gryp

Thu, Mar 22 2007, 1:16 pm

Quote:

People have the choice of what to fixate on, positive or negative events in their lives. Yes, there are extreme cases, though.

A parent who has severely damaged or is damaging their child's life and does not respond to set limits, does not deserve to have the "PARENT" wildcard to play.
Moving 100 miles away and seeing each other once a year is part of not focusing on the blame, but solving a problem.

I hope all reading this thread do not automatically assume I am one of those who claim my parents abused me just because I'm responding. shock

Last edited by gryp on Thu, Mar 22 2007, 1:18 pm; edited 1 time in total

bashinda

Thu, Mar 22 2007, 1:17 pm

GR wrote:

This sounds like that family in Jersey. Hashem yishmor!

amother

Thu, Mar 22 2007, 1:29 pm

GR wrote:

Quote:

People have the choice of what to fixate on, positive or negative events in their lives. Yes, there are extreme cases, though.

A parent who has severely damaged or is damaging their child's life and does not respond to set limits, does not deserve to have the "PARENT" wildcard to play.

As long as they do a serious Cheshbon Hanefesh of all the good that was done, and give it equal weight and importance to the bad. I agree though, this doesn't apply in the most serious of cases.

Ruchel

Thu, Mar 22 2007, 6:09 pm

My dad lived through the war. I definitely wouldn't say he is weird,although I'm sure the fact that he is overly emotional about anything that involves his family or the Jews. He didn't mess me up in any way.
My mom is the child of 2 Holocaust survivors (1 deported 1 "only" hidden) and is one of the mentally healthiest people I know... maybe we're lucky.

gryp

Thu, Mar 22 2007, 6:14 pm

Quote:

As long as they do a serious Cheshbon Hanefesh of all the good that was done, and give it equal weight and importance to the bad. I agree though, this doesn't apply in the most serious of cases.

I think it also depends on what the parent's intention and mindset was at the time he/she was being damaging.

amother

Thu, Mar 22 2007, 6:51 pm

How the Holocaust affect people varies. One survivor I heard had a theory that in such extreme conditions, both good and bad were revealed more than they would have been under usual circumstances.

My MIL had the misfortune of dealing with toxic parents who happened to have been through the war. We've struggled to really separate out the issues. On one hand, my kids will learn about what happened during the Holocaust - how dh's grandfather lost most of his family, how dh's grandmother's family fled to Russia, etc. On the other hand, we acknowledge that they did some horrible things, and that their actions and decisions can't all be justified by saying "but they went through the war". It may cause all sorts of fears, anxieties and sadness - but it doesn't cause someone to become a s-xual deviant who preys upon women and children in his own family. There was no remorse, no effort to change, and no love shown. Cutting off all contact was absolutely necessary.

For the grandmother - enabling a deviant while bullying the victims was a horrible choice - and it was a CHOICE she made. Eventually, after his death reduced the safety issue and after subsequent events made her genuinely admit that she had been wrong, it was possible to relate to her as simply a human being with flaws. Until that point, though, she engaged in such extreme and hurtful behaviour that accommodation really wasn't possible.

I agree that it's not productive to get "stuck" on anger. It can be destructive. However, it is sometimes a stage that people need to go through as they move from blaming themselves (saying "Am a such a bad child? Am I being totally disrespectful for not inviting a molester to our seder?") to realizing that a parent's behaviour was wrong, pure and simple.

amother

Thu, Mar 22 2007, 7:10 pm

Quote:

I agree that it's not productive to get "stuck" on anger. It can be destructive. However, it is sometimes a stage that people need to go through as they move from blaming themselves (saying "Am a such a bad child? Am I being totally disrespectful for not inviting a molester to our seder?") to realizing that a parent's behaviour was wrong, pure and simple.

EXACTLY.

A relative of mine was 'damaged' by his holocaust parents. And takes all his anger and bitterness out on his children. Is that mere 'imperfection' of a parent? Or shall we excuse him for his behavior because he has a reason? NO! NO! AND NO AGAIN!

We can all find 'reasons' to act in one way or another, but they are not 'excuses'. He went through alot, but man, put yourself together and make sure the next generation doens't go through what you did. Can't do it alone? Get some help! Is he wrong? Positively yes. No one can argue about that.

mimivan

Thu, Mar 22 2007, 8:17 pm

I think there's the kind of anxiety Holocaust survivors seem to have in general, and aspects of the basic personality which may have become intensified by the experience. A friend talks about a schizophrenic mother who survived Auschwitz. She made my friend's life very, very difficult, but it seems as if she would have been mentally instable even if she hadn't been through the war. On the other extreme, my father in law Obm was very, very even tempered. Nothing rattled him, and alot happened to him after the war, but he didn't let it bother him, and he was in the camps. I think it was just his nature to be calm anyway, and my friend's mother, unfortunately, did not have that nature.

It seems we all are born with our basic temperment and "tools." What happens to us may alter the tools, but they are probably still the same.

amother

Mon, May 07 2007, 1:25 am

to the first Amother who wrote such true, beautiful words, thank you!, I agree with you that blaming is the game we love to play, after all it's the easy way out, it allows us to shirk the responsibility of our actions today. I've been through therapy that has helped me put my past in it's place, it's helped me figure out more about myself and how some of my characters defects formed. And then we must let the past be past, and move forward with what we now have, today, to live it in love, and peace.

amother

Fri, May 18 2007, 4:12 pm

Amen.

If we live with unresolved anger or resentment and the need to return an eye for an eye, with parents or others, it will come through to our children.