Your reaction to Keiravtuni Convention - Yoeli Lebowit

youngishbear

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 9:54 pm

Seas wrote:

I didn't. I pointed out that you do accept sometimes parents and children have to be separated due to the wrong choices of either. The fact that you don't agree this should happen when say a parent goes OTD just means you don't appreciate how bad that is. Perhaps you should work on your torah values to accept that going OTD is a terrible thing and where there is a danger of a child being influenced unfortunately the parent has to be kept away.

Going OTD is terrible. But it's a person's choice, and stsying religious is every person's own choice. Parents often think they can control their children's religious future so they believe keeping them away from bad influences is the only way to do so. But that is no guarantee either way.

Being exposed to a person who is OTD, parent or sibling, will not automatically cause the exposee to follow that path. And keeping a child away from a parent may cause them to hate the religion that took their parent away.

Kicking out one child may make the rest of the kids afraid that their parents don't love them 100%. They may toe the line, but what's happening inside their young minds is probably not very ideal.

the world's best mom

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 10:40 pm

oliveoil wrote:

Talk about generalizing.

Is a healthy, young adult, choosing to live a moral but non-religious life really horrific? (ie. studying, working, travelling, meeting new people, dating freely but not keeping shabbos/kosher etc.) It may not be what the parent wants, but surely horrific is too strong a word.

Or is your frame of reference for "OTD" limited to the "drinking and drugs" stereotype?

I would say yes, it is horrific. Because the whole point of our life in this world is to enjoy Hashem's Shechina, because that is the greatest joy in the world. We are here to get Schar and earn a Cheleck in Olam HaBah. Someone who goes off the Derech is giving that all up, which is pretty horrific IMO.

That said, I do not think any child should be kicked out of the house ever, unless he/she is an actual danger to the other kids- not just because the other kids will see him and may one day decide to copy.

Seas

Thu, Dec 31 2015, 7:22 am

youngishbear wrote:

I think most people would agree it's a parent's job to keep their children away from bad influences. In many, if not most, cases where one parent went OTD they expressed clear wishes for their children to follow on their footsteps, so 100% the other parent should try to keep them away. As sad as it is for the OTD parent they are losing their children because of their own actions - not different to people who go to prison because they committed crimes.

Quote:

Being exposed to a person who is OTD, parent or sibling, will not automatically cause the exposee to follow that path. And keeping a child away from a parent may cause them to hate the religion that took their parent away.

Kicking out one child may make the rest of the kids afraid that their parents don't love them 100%. They may toe the line, but what's happening inside their young minds is probably not very ideal.

Exposing the children to the above might very well cause them to go OTD themselves. As to the rest, well that is what can be debated, ie whether cutting ties works, but there is nothing morally wrong about it.

Seas

Thu, Dec 31 2015, 7:25 am

the world's best mom wrote:

This.

We are not set down on this world to enjoy ourselves or to be 'nice' (in the way a [non jew] can be a 'nice person'), but to keep Hashem's torah and add kavod shamayim.

Sadie

Thu, Dec 31 2015, 7:36 am

Seas wrote:

What about them? What does this have to do with what I wrote?

Losing one's child (and for children to lose their father) is the most terrible pain there is, so a man would have to be crazy to give up his bargaining chip before absolutely protecting himself from that pain.

If he won't willingly give up his bargaining chip then it needs to be taken from him. Courts/batei din should enforce giving a get before custody negotiations begin. Prenups should become standard.

youngishbear

Thu, Dec 31 2015, 8:06 am

Seas wrote:

I disagree with the bolded.

This is a huge tragedy all around, don't get me wrong. But remember that my concern is not for the feelings of the OTD parent but for the innocent child who is being incited against a parent they may love very much despite the lapse in religion.

nywife

Thu, Dec 31 2015, 9:08 am

Seas wrote:

Forgive me, but I'm trying to understand what you're alluding to here.

Here's what you have been saying: (and I'm not quoting verbatim).
1. "Fathers should withhold a get until they receive the custody agreement they desire."

Ok; but what happens when the father is abusive? What happens is the father is a twisted, money-hungry man and demands exorbitant fees in exchange for custody?

2. " if a child is OTD and it causes shame to the parents it is acceptable to put them on the streets, the same way we would put a child molester in jail".

Firstly being OTD and being a child molester are not remotely comparable. I can't wrap my head around the analogy. Secondly, if you saw a girl walking into the street into the path of an upcoming car would you say yell "stop!!"? Now, what if that girl was (heaven forbid) wearing pants, would you still try to protect her from danger. I sure hope so. Now what if that girl was your own daughter. Would you not RUN into that street and physically pull her out?

It's mind boggling to me that parents would just toss their children out the door. I'm not saying that it's appropriate for every child to live at home, but even for the most troubled children there are safe facilities equipped to take them in.

3. "If one of the divorced (or separated) parents is OTD it is ok to keep the child away from said parent."

Refer back to back you said in #1. What happens if the father is OTD and withholding a get? (Bc according to what you said, it's his only bargaining chip so he should).

4. "Being OTD is the worst thing in the world."

No, no it's not.