This kid is going to be a lawyer...

amother

Puce

Wed, Jan 27 2016, 8:54 pm

...I just hope I'll still be sane by the time he graduates law school.

(Please read this, I know it's long but I really need help.)

I am having the hardest time with my 7 y/o DS. He is a professional arguer. All day. About everything. Tell him the sky is blue? Guess what - it's really not. Tell him that 2+2=4? Wrong again!

I know I need to pick my battles. I know. But there are just too many darn battles. AND HE IS NEVER WRONG.

Today. I gave him a 10-minute warning to come inside. Ten minutes later, he actually came in nicely for once. And then asked if he could go back out after his snack. I said no. Too cold, homework to do, whatever the reason. IT'S NOT COLD! I NEVER GET TO DO ANYTHING!

(This is why I've stopped giving reasons, or giving one reason calmly and not arguing further, but that doesn't work either.)

Then he closed the closet with his sister in it, despite her screaming and my warning not to play with the door. She pushed the door back open where it ceremoniously smacked him in the face. Lesson learned, right? Nope. SHE should be the one to apologize. HE is the angel who never does anything wrong.

At 5 I offered to let him vacuum (he loves it). He declined. At 7:15 I pulled out the vacuum so I could do it without making noise after bedtime. He had a fit. Apparently for the last two hours he'd been thinking about if he should vacuum or not, and now he decided he wanted to. But it takes him too long, he still hadn't showered, and I was putting DD to sleep. Tantrums and screaming ensued. Mostly about how I treat him like dirt. Lovely.

Yesterday we had a beautiful calm afternoon because of a great motivator/prize that he wanted at the end of the day. No arguing. No chutzpah. So he CAN control himself... when the stakes are high enough. Regular positive reinforcement doesn't seem to work any more.

We're getting him in to see a great social worker to deal with his impulsivity and social issues, but the evaluation process is long and he won't start getting sessions for another few weeks. In the meantime, please please please offer suggestions for how to get through this. I need help.

Thanks for reading, please give me your best tips!

seeker

Wed, Jan 27 2016, 10:47 pm

first of all, he needs to learn how to argue respectfully so that when he does argue, he's not a brat about it. What this takes is a whole lot of consistent practice. You don't even engage in any argument that isn't phrased respectfully (you don't need to ignore it either, with kids like this that just makes them more frustrated, but you can remind them of better words and help them practice)

The second thing is that when parent says, you listen first and ask later. That's for the "why" questions. If the question is really more that you don't want to do it, then you can ask respectfully for an exemption and give your own reason but then mom has the bottom line. for example:
Child: Can I go out to play after snack?
Mom: Hm... no, not this time.
Child (instead of but whyyyyy which can only lead to arguing against the reason you give for why): Is it possible for you to reconsider? Because Yitzy is still outside and I would really like a chance to finish our game together before he has to go in.
Mom: Either ok, I understand the situation and will let you go, or Sorry kiddo still no.
And that's the end of the argument.

It's still very much a work in progress but I try to teach my kids to ask for what they want rather than argue/complain/etc. Instead of "why do you always give her and I never get and you don't listen and blah blah" you say "I would really like that too." Understand your message, communicate that message, work towards solution, don't annoy people. It's a useful skill that many adults lack but I hope my kids are learning better than that.

We had a pretty big downslide in the listening to parents department recently, so I started a token system where you can get a token for listening right away and there's a prize store every erev Shabbos. It's not a miracle cure but like you said motivation helps. It's also a way for them to earn something they really want that I didn't really want to get them but they really really really want (I'm not morally opposed...just one of those things that's an expense and a pain in the neck for mom...) so this way they know what they need to do to earn it and can stop bugging me. Of course I am evil so it will take them 80 points to earn that (I figure with them spending some points on smaller prizes in the interim, that should buy me some time before having to deal with the PITA reward)

sourstix

Wed, Jan 27 2016, 11:05 pm

I do think that with a kid that argues is the best to not argue back. but thats true with every kid.

they do say that kids that argue are not secure. I dont know if its true.

anyway, if you dont want him to vacuum. you can say very calmly that now is not a good time. he is tantruming bec he knows it bothers you. dont even respond to it. just take him by the hand and take him to a quiet place and tell him to stay there for 5 minutes.

whatever he says to hurt you. dont even listen. hes a kid. thats what kids to to make you feel bad when you dont give them what they want.

teach him that tantrums dont work. that bad language doesnt work.

I know its easier said than done. but this works.

amother

Puce

Wed, Jan 27 2016, 11:37 pm

Thanks seeker, I've tried that approach but get so frustrated when the arguing just. does. not. end. I need to stick with it for longer. I've done charts and tickets but they fizzle out pretty fast when he doesn't earn a token as often as he'd like to...

Thanks sourstix, I don't react to his tantruming (at least not most of the time, hey, everyone has their moments) but he just gets so heated up. The worst part is, usually after he has a fit and gets it out of his system he's a yummy, agreeable (sort of) kid and I just wish he could be that kid more often!

Good luck loveit.

I'll take any and all advice from you seasoned imamothers!

amother

Aquamarine

Thu, Jan 28 2016, 12:30 am

You said he was starting to see a social worker. I would actually recommend a therapist/psychologist, one with training in children and family issues. There is a specialty degree called marriage and family therapists. They are trained to not only help the child but also help you parent. They don't just do marriage counseling- I know one that is amazing at her job. Got a struggling child to say "I don't like that" to siblings instead of fight or whine and really just express himself!!

And assessments shouldn't take that long unless they are doing psychological assessments for disorders but only psychologists can do those in most states. Most therapists I know take 1-2 sessions to assess the child. 1 with the parents. Then start the sessions and will regularly meet with parents (sometimes after each child session) to give "homework" and to help them reinforce what was taught. Why is it taking so long?

But it sounds like your son can use firm boundaries. Like "no vacuuming after X time (5pm) unless we agreed on it before that time". Stick with It. "Whining about a decision I made will not change anything except possibly get you in time out".

He might feel anxious about something. It sounds like he needs order and stability. Has anything changed in the home recently? Or has he been like this since he was 2-3? And have you thought about any underlying issue? Processing?

FranticFrummie

Thu, Jan 28 2016, 5:52 am

amother wrote:

My sister does this for a living. If anyone is in Portland, Oregon, I can give you her contact info.

7 is old enough to explain natural consequences. When he tantrums about the vacuum, ask him what happened. See if he understands that he didn't do it when you asked, and he waited too long. The consequence was that he didn't get to do it himself. That's not a punishment, that's a consequence.

Sometimes you can head off problems by explaining the consequences up front. "If you don't vacuum now, you will not be allowed to do it later because it will be too close to bedtime. Do you want to vacuum now, or do you want me to do it later?" Another one is "If you don't do your homework as soon as you get home from school, you won't be able to go out and play after dinner because you'll have to do it then."

imasinger

Thu, Jan 28 2016, 9:33 am

First and foremost, make sure you are giving him lots and lots of positive attention for the good things. When he came in right away after your 10 minute warning, what did you do and say? It ought to be: "WOW, you listened right away, and came in right when you were supposed to! I'm so proud of the way I can trust you. Tomorrow, when you want to play outside, I'm going to remember what an awesome job you did."

Then, try as often as possible to anticipate potential problems, and set out alternatives. "Come, have your snack, and let's get started on homework. And after you finish, are you going to choose Legos, or puzzles? Outside time is over for today."

Giving the positive choices works much better than just saying, "No, you can't go back out."

Firm, clear limits can be helpful. "Okay, you said you didn't want to vacuum today. If you change your mind, the offer is open until 6:00; after that, it will be too late."

"There are certain things that we are not allowed to say, even when we are angry. You need some time on your own, and when you can come back to me to have a real talk about this, I will be here to listen."

"In this home, when we are unhappy, we need to use "I" language. The way to say what you are feeling is, "I am upset that I can't go outside right now." I will make a chart for you, and show you which times are available for you to play outside, so that you can see when you will be able to again."

"It is DANGEROUS to close a closet door on someone. I'm sorry you got hurt, but there is absolutely no excuse for ever doing that."

Please remember -- his arguing and crying is a sign of HIS maturity issues. Don't let it push your buttons. Don't give up on your rules, continue to give him positive attention for everything good he does, and to withdraw attention when he starts acting out or melting down.

And do take the suggestions of above posters about looking for further guidance and help, for him, and for yourself. Dealing with a child like this takes more than most people can come up with on their own.

amother

Puce

Thu, Jan 28 2016, 1:30 pm

Thank you so much to all who replied.
Aquamarine, it actually is a psychologist we're taking him to, not sure why I wrote social worker. I have high hopes.

chani8, thanks for the suggestions and the compliment - not feeling like such a great mom these days Sad

FF & imasinger, thank you for the detailed replies. The problem is that he just cannot see the logic, especially when he's upset, of natural consequences. He closed the door, but it's still his sister's fault that his head got banged. He is so stubborn and stuck in his victim mentality that he'd rather give up his play time to complain about not being able to play outside (and then will later complain that he didn't get to play inside, and of course it's my fault and not his).

Thanks imasinger for the validation. It really is hard to parent him. I really need to give him more positive attention but it is so hard to find things to compliment. I'm working on it! And as for the "I" language, I've tried that but many times it turns into "I'm so mad because YOU didn't let me play outside and YOU'RE so mean" Very Happy

imasinger

Thu, Jan 28 2016, 1:42 pm

Sounds like you are doing a lot right.

I feel for the kid. I don't see logical consequences so well when my head has been slammed with a door, either. Best thing to do in the moment is separate and comfort, and then aim for logic a little later, after everyone is feeling better.

I can so relate to a kid being so stuck in a victim mentality that they complain during their whole playtime. We have had many, many moments like that. What has worked here is setting a timer, and saying, "At the end of 2 minutes, I'm going to remind you that you still have playtime left indoors, but it will be over by dinnertime, which is 30 minutes from now." Then, go again, as he is still kvetching, and say, "Did you hear the timer? You have 28 minutes of play time left. If you'd rather spend it being upset, you can, but if you want to play, now is your chance." Repeat as necessary. Most kids will move on after the timer goes off 2 or 3 times. Either way, it helps solidify the idea that they are making a choice that will have consequences.

My favorite response to how mean I am is, "Yup, I'm the meanest mom in the world. And proud of it." And then, when things are better, to say, "Am I still the meanest mom in the world? Oh, whew, glad to hear that." It helps a kid understand that their excesses are temporary.

Hang in there! If you haven't yet discovered the Nurtured Heart Approach, I highly recommend it.