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A dissenting view of the Rechnitz speech
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amother
Indigo


 

Post Mon, Feb 01 2016, 1:26 pm
Fox wrote:
The Yeshivish world is no different. There are a lot of us who are comfortable with the cultural practices and basic observances in the Yeshivish world, but we aren't committed to the tenet of Emunas Chachamim when we don't like what the Chachamim have to say. After all, we don't want to be that frum.


The following point might be connected, it might not. Not all "Chachamim" are using good judgement in all areas of life, as in some "Chachamim" being involved in white collar crime, turning a blind eye to white collar crime, some defending and covering up for molesters, and shaming the victims, which has happened in many different Jewish groups. That gives many in the masses a bad taste in their mouths when "Chachamim" speak about other topics.
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Feb 01 2016, 2:38 pm
amother wrote:
Not all "Chachamim" are using good judgement in all areas of life, as in some "Chachamim" being involved in white collar crime, turning a blind eye to white collar crime, some defending and covering up for molesters, and shaming the victims, which has happened in many different Jewish groups. That gives many in the masses a bad taste in their mouths when "Chachamim" speak about other topics.


I've often considered this point. Obviously our leaders are not infallible, but claiming that our cynical rejection of their leadership is solely due to their failings is usually an excuse, not a reason.

Sadly, the vast majority of us are quite happy with whatever status quo exists until either our own oxen are gored or the situation becomes an embarrassment.

The people who sound the first alarms about potentially troubling situations are almost never thanked for their efforts. First, we deny the problem exists. Okay, well, maybe it exists, but it's being exaggerated. Fine, it's a problem, but it only affects certain people. Often it takes negative press or concerted public relations campaigns to tip the balance of public opionion.

And what happens then? Everybody climbs on the bandwagon, shrieking, "Why didn't our leaders do something about this?" -- as if we were all innocent little lambs who would have immediately repented our own sins and stopped benefiting from others' wrongdoing.

The people who sound the first alarms often have their reputations shredded by the masses or, at best, become "controversial" figures in the frum veldt. Given how we treat people who tell us things we don't want to hear, I'm impressed that so many of our chachamim are brave enough to do the right thing from time to time!

We haven't allowed our chachamim to tell us to stop giving engagement parties. Why would we accept their leadership with regard to the issues you mention?
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gold21




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Feb 01 2016, 2:43 pm
what in the world makes a kid a "top" kid?
lol.
so bizarre.
no, literally, SO bizarre.
do u guys who believe your kid is "top" even realize how bizarre you sound?
Scratching Head

when u say "top", do you mean "cookie cutter" ?
im just really confused.
and happy I dont live in lakewood.
Wink
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thunderstorm




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Feb 01 2016, 2:50 pm
youngishbear wrote:
My point is, if the reason the kid isn't being accepted is as simple as having internet or TV against school rules, they can't complain.

They can complain about the rule, or start a school that does allow it.

It was my understanding that kids are not finding schools for less specific reasons.



You are right. I wasnt able to find a school for my kids and I finally found out why...because my parents and DH's parents are baalie teshuva...rendering us "defective goods" that's where all the "elitism" comes in...my yichus is not great enough. We wont mention that I was an honorable mention at my graduation in Bais Yaakov....being a good frum person doesnt count anymore...I need to have $$$, yichus etc.
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gold21




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Feb 01 2016, 2:53 pm
Bizzydizzymommy wrote:
You are right. I wasnt able to find a school for my kids and I finally found out why...because my parents and DH's parents are baalie teshuva...rendering us "defective goods" that's where all the "elitism" comes in...my yichus is not great enough. We wont mention that I was an honorable mention at my graduation in Bais Yaakov....being a good frum person doesnt count anymore...I need to have $$$, yichus etc.


you think so? in my opinon, that likely was not the reason. because the grandparents of the kids are baalei teshuva? do people actually care about stuff like that? it was more likely that you had no "pull", no "connections", no family members in the school already who could advocate for you (perhaps due to your baalei teshuva backgrounds).
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Mevater




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Feb 01 2016, 2:58 pm
Fox wrote:
We haven't allowed our chachamim to tell us to stop giving engagement parties. Why would we accept their leadership with regard to the issues you mention?


I havent seen ONE Rov who refused to go to the wedding of any Mispallel who made an engagement party! Theyre not sticking to their own guns, why should we?
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thunderstorm




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Feb 01 2016, 3:00 pm
gold21 wrote:
you think so? in my opinon, that likely was not the reason. because the grandparents of the kids are baalei teshuva? do people actually care about stuff like that? it was more likely that you had no "pull", no "connections", no family members in the school already who could advocate for you (perhaps due to your baalei teshuva backgrounds).


I was told so by more than two people that over heard the reasoning. I actually had pull , and was told by my "pull" that the school really doesnt want us but he could get us in if we wanted to. He himself told us that we would be to pained if he told us the real reason. I found out from a rebbe in the school afterward, that it was in fact their reason. I applied to over 6 schools and each one came back with more ridiculous excuses than the next as to why we couldn't be accepted.
I already experienced this treatment when I was applying for myself to Gateshead. I was rejected due to the lack of yichus. Plain and simply, I was a beloved student by all my teachers, had the best recommendation letters etc...it was all of no use...I experienced this again when applying to BJJ and other seminaries in Eretz Yisroel....and then I had to deal with it all over again with my own children!!!
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amother
Slategray


 

Post Mon, Feb 01 2016, 3:37 pm
Bizzydizzymommy wrote:
I was told so by more than two people that over heard the reasoning. I actually had pull , and was told by my "pull" that the school really doesnt want us but he could get us in if we wanted to. He himself told us that we would be to pained if he told us the real reason. I found out from a rebbe in the school afterward, that it was in fact their reason. I applied to over 6 schools and each one came back with more ridiculous excuses than the next as to why we couldn't be accepted.
I already experienced this treatment when I was applying for myself to Gateshead. I was rejected due to the lack of yichus. Plain and simply, I was a beloved student by all my teachers, had the best recommendation letters etc...it was all of no use...I experienced this again when applying to BJJ and other seminaries in Eretz Yisroel....and then I had to deal with it all over again with my own children!!!


This is very surprising to me, because Rebbetzin David actually actively seeks out girls from "interesting" or "atypical" backgrounds. She'd usually much rather accept a great girl from a BT background than a great girl from a "regular" family.
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thunderstorm




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Feb 01 2016, 3:42 pm
amother wrote:
This is very surprising to me, because Rebbetzin David actually actively seeks out girls from "interesting" or "atypical" backgrounds. She'd usually much rather accept a great girl from a BT background than a great girl from a "regular" family.


Oh well! It all worked out for the best, I ended up staying in the USA and attending sem. here and got engaged and married during seminary year. My mother would never had considered a shidduch had I been overseas at the time..she wouldve pushed things off, so it worked out for me. But it hurts to know that no matter how hard I work on myself there will always be people in our society that will think of me as "less valuable"..I've come to terms with it and accepted it for what it is...when I heard Rechnitz speak it made me cry and stirred up all those feelings I bury deep inside.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Feb 01 2016, 4:11 pm
amother wrote:
This is very surprising to me, because Rebbetzin David actually actively seeks out girls from "interesting" or "atypical" backgrounds. She'd usually much rather accept a great girl from a BT background than a great girl from a "regular" family.


Agree. My aunt went to BJJ after having never gone to a Jewish school before (she grew up where there wasn't any) and when I was there, I was friends with a girl who attended an all-girls gymnasium (in Europe) for high school. That's they type of background that she goes for.
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dancingqueen




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Feb 01 2016, 4:16 pm
gold21 wrote:
what in the world makes a kid a "top" kid?
lol.
so bizarre.
no, literally, SO bizarre.
do u guys who believe your kid is "top" even realize how bizarre you sound?
Scratching Head

when u say "top", do you mean "cookie cutter" ?
im just really confused.
and happy I dont live in lakewood.
Wink


Agree, and I feel that no one has yet answered the question, but it sounds like it means the schools that have the strictest rules hashkafah-wise.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Feb 01 2016, 7:58 pm
dancingqueen wrote:
Agree, and I feel that no one has yet answered the question, but it sounds like it means the schools that have the strictest rules hashkafah-wise.


Top school is going to mean different things to different people.

For example, Bais Faiga is considered a top school by some people. It's been around the longest, and they have really great services for children that require it. It's well run, the teachers by and large are experienced, the academic standard is up to par, etc....

Others might not want Bais Faiga, preferring a smaller school. It also has quite a mix in terms of the crowd, and for some people TOP means more homogeneous.
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m in Israel




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 02 2016, 3:53 am
Chayalle wrote:
Agree. My aunt went to BJJ after having never gone to a Jewish school before (she grew up where there wasn't any) and when I was there, I was friends with a girl who attended an all-girls gymnasium (in Europe) for high school. That's they type of background that she goes for.


Same experience when I was there. There were plenty of girls whose parents were BT, certainly grandparents wouldn't be an issue! And plenty of girls from more modern backgrounds as well. And she certainly doesn't particularly care about families being wealthy: first of all, seminaries don't fundraise at all, so there is no need to "cultivate" donors, and second of all Reb. David herself is pretty wealthy. There is a certain "yichus" element in that she tends to accept girls from the chashuva Chaim Berlin families (understandably so, IMO) as well as daughters of alumni -- but those girls are really a relatively small part of the the overall number of girls accepted.

BJJ (and many other Israel seminaries) simply has many more applicants than slots, so often perfectly suitable candidates get rejected. There doesn't need to be a secret dark reason. (And I think it is a very different situation than kids not being accepted into elementary school or high school.)
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fmt4




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 02 2016, 11:33 pm
gold21 wrote:
what in the world makes a kid a "top" kid?
lol.
so bizarre.
no, literally, SO bizarre.
do u guys who believe your kid is "top" even realize how bizarre you sound?
Scratching Head

when u say "top", do you mean "cookie cutter" ?
im just really confused.
and happy I dont live in lakewood.
Wink


Right??? whenever I hear that phrase, usually in mishpacha magazine or something, I hear a nasal yeshivish voice in my head talking about their taaaaap daughter who was president of G.O and head counselor in their freaking sleep away camp and who deserves a taaaap boy who never looked at a colored shirt. Like are there really people that care about that cr*p? Is that what makes someone "top," whatever the h*ll that means? Why can't people just be people? Why would anyone want to label their children that way? It goes against every single rule of parenting, and can only make the ones that fit the description feel extra pressure and the ones who don't feel low self esteem.
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