SPINOFF Trip with Male Boss

PinkFridge

Fri, Jan 29 2016, 1:45 pm

naturalmom5 wrote:

When you are raised in a uber gender segregated society with a million chumras and repressive measures , you get aroused when wind blows on you, especially if you are still 20s/30s and the hormones are active.

Yes, and you can still get turned on easily enough that you appreciate harchakos 30 years later. There are perks.

Maybe there is something to some if not most of it...

causemommysaid

Fri, Jan 29 2016, 1:45 pm

I think some of the boundaries are over the top. You should be interacting at the conference. That is part of the point. To collaborate and get better ideas for the business.

I do think that if you are religious and you are the only two people going to the conference without spouses it would be a good idea to travel separately and not hang out after the conference hours.

amother

Indigo

Fri, Jan 29 2016, 4:05 pm

Well, marina, I can't say for sure if all those gedarim are really necessary or if they create s*xual tension or awareness where none would exist otherwise, but I did have a friend who had a huge crush on a man who worked in her agency. It was before the days of e-mail and texting, so at some point after their phone calls became less about the Johnson account and more about how pretty her new hairstyle is or how nice his new suit is, she started using an assumed name when she called him because...he was married to someone else. That marriage was on the rocks and the wife eventially called it quits. He and she started dating before the divorce was final. They eventually married, so there was no actual sinning going on, but improper it certainly was. Once you start using an assumed name, you know it's not glatt kosher. One wonders what would have happened had the first wife not walked out. Maybe more than just "improper". You never know. She was crazy about him, and apparently he was crazy about her, long before the wife walked. And as far as I know they never went to any out-of-town conferences together.

amother

Honeydew

Sat, Jan 30 2016, 11:40 pm

Marina, I'm the OP of the post you are referring to. I think the crux of your misunderstanding is differences in community standards. B"h I am very happily married, as is my boss, and the relationship is strictly professional. No, there is no fear that anything inappropriate will take place.

However, based on the way we both were brought up, there are definitely more boundaries in place and we need to ensure that these boundaries stay in place in a situation such as this. Obviously we need to be normal, so we will attend the conference together, network together, etc. But travel arrangements, hotels, etc. will be done separately. Why? No concrete reason, sort of like "Good fences make good neighbors."

Remember in the olden days a woman couldn't travel alone, always needed a chaperon? Sort of like that. In our community something like this just isn't done, so at the conference it's business as usual, but outside of that we will maintain a distance to the best of our abilities.

imasoftov

Sun, Jan 31 2016, 7:12 am

About not spending time with co-workers away from home, not that I have heard any first-hand stories of people getting inappropriate during business travel, but if I think about how it might happen, the scenario that comes to my mind before hooking up with someone who you'll see every day when you get back home is one involving someone you just met who you'll never see again (or just at the next conference). But maybe my imagination works differently.

OOTforlife

Sun, Jan 31 2016, 7:55 am

Prophylactic measures against something that carries a stigma simply won't work if they're presented as something that only at-risk people have to do. People will not want to admit to themselves that they might be at risk and even if they realize they are, they won't want to admit it to their spouses and communities. So you have to just have everyone do it.

That's why I, a perfectly law abiding citizen with no history of illegal drug use, got drug tested during my last pregnancy, and also why you see happily married couples of 40+ years who have no doubts about their marriage signing the RCA postnup.

I find some of the yeshivish gedarim too onerous personally. But I understand the principle behind it.

amother

Magenta

Mon, Feb 01 2016, 1:36 am

When I was a teen our Orthodox shul arranged self-defense classes for women. One of the women ran away with the instructor.

I know this because I babysat for the kids (before and) after she left.

Well, thinking back, my mother must have told me this. Did she know for a fact or was it shul gossip?

I wonder if she would remember now...

Queen6

Mon, Feb 01 2016, 9:48 am

Marina; I hear you're point and would love to agree with you, however I don't think you are living in the unfortunate reality of what goes on in today's corporate world. You're right most co workers are not having affairs. However most are crossing lines that they shouldn't. I don't know if all these "gedarim" help but I hear where they're coming from.
When do workers are SO on top of each other, so friendly, so sharing personal details..... How do you think that plays out when dad gets home? His wife may be tired, busy, not perfectly clean house, kids screaming..... (A usual house) and his mind starts to drift to his co worker who was all dressed up and having an adult conversation with. He's not leaving the house and getting into bed with his co worker but his thoughts are not where they should be.
When a girl is at work with good looking, clean, successful men and she comes home to a good husband who may not be as perfect as what she thinks her bosses are.... That's not good. No she's not running off to an affair with her boss but her thoughts are not where they should be.
It's the unfortunate reality. Offices are not a good place for Jewish men and women.

HonesttoGod

Mon, Feb 01 2016, 10:20 am

I am all for gedarim but some of those quoted seem extreme.
Obviously don't sleep in the same hotel room but what exactly is the issue booking a room together? One business card, one hotel, two rooms = a problem?
Or going out to eat...I have a male boss, he is the only frum person in my office aside for me. I call him by his first name, everyone in the office does it would be weird not to.
We chat a lot about family kids spouses, we went out for an office party, he was there with his wife I was with my husband, we were still talking to each other.

If you don't trust yourself near men that is a whole other situation but I mean how horny are you/your boss that you need to literally be apart from each other the entire way through a BUSINESS trip?! Its weird, sorry.

Additionally, I am friendly with a lot of men, I often find I get on better with men than with women and I call all my husbands friends by their first name and I don't see the issue at all. I wouldn't go out alone with my boss or my dh friends and no one else but I wouldn't make myself crazy if there was one restaurant and no where else to go, I would just call my husband during the meal or sit at another table or at the bar where there are many people.

Ruchel

Mon, Feb 01 2016, 3:13 pm

It is impossible making a living even in a frum job in Europe if you won't TALK. At most you can find a man/woman only firm... but gooood luuuuuck, and then there are the opposite relations clients.

Ok, I'd not travel esp overnight with my male boss or coworker.

Calling mr and mrs is extremely awkward in most settings but I guess you could insist on you doing it....

pointyshoes

Mon, Feb 01 2016, 4:05 pm

I think that cool and professional strictly business relationship is the way to go.
I dont think most people would get inappropriate but I also think that I dont want male friends. Even "just a friend" could be a close friend and I've always steered away from sharing my heart with any male other than my husband.
You dont need to be friends to do business together.
I would not go on an overnight trip with my male boss.
I think that everyone somewhere in there finds it a little off or it wouldn't even be on this forum.

pointyshoes

Mon, Feb 01 2016, 4:09 pm

Queen6 wrote:

Agreed- very well said

sky

Mon, Feb 01 2016, 4:10 pm

pointyshoes wrote:

I would not go on an overnight trip with my male boss.
I think that everyone somewhere in there finds it a little off or it wouldn't even be on this forum.

Of course people do.

I had to go on trips with my male manager. It wasn't for pleasure but for business.
We did demos at customer sites or troubleshooting.
I made this decision based the on guidance of my rav and a female mentor from seminary. Neither saw an issue as long as proper gidarim were kept.

amother

Indigo

Mon, Feb 01 2016, 6:35 pm

This is why it's IMO better to work in a non-Jewish environment. All my coworkers know that I can't go out to dinner with them, singly or in a group, because I keep kosher. After the seminar or presentation ends, they know I won't be joining them for dinner or after-dinner entertainment.

Ruchel

Wed, Feb 03 2016, 11:27 am

amother wrote:

So they order kosher stuff to the office or go to kosher restaurant and then you're sooo feeling bad to avoid it... my mom worked on a high level and it was a recurring problem. Nothing inappropriate just she wasn't interested. She could get out of it but I hear nowadays it's harder on high levels?

amother

Indigo

Wed, Feb 03 2016, 5:13 pm

Ruchel wrote:

So they order kosher stuff to the office or go to kosher restaurant and then you're sooo feeling bad to avoid it...

OP's talking about business trips, by definition out of town, wherever "town" happens to be, and the out-of-towners are eating at local restaurants. Not to mention that they're not ordering in kosher, even if such a thing were possible, for the one person out of the group who happens to be kosher. That **might** happen if it's the head honcho who's kosher, and she or he's doing the ordering, **and** there happens to be a kosher eatery in the town where the meeting or seminar is being held. But outside of the major centers of NY-Chicago-LA, there's precious little in the way of that.

amother

Mustard

Fri, Feb 05 2016, 9:40 am

amother wrote:

Well at least in New York it's a very common practice if there is an orthodox member of the team, not just the head honcho.