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What would be the appropriate response?
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amother
Bisque


 

Post Sat, Feb 06 2016, 11:33 pm
DS 3.5 is not an easy kid. He has some anxiety issues which we are in the middle of taking care of (going to professionals). But meanwhile I find myself so confused at times, not sure how to respond when he misbehaves.
I wonder if I can give an example here of what happened on Friday and hear your ideas of what I should have done. What I did do - was all wrong.

DS came back from school in a good mood, things were going well. DH was on the phone with work, I was nursing the baby. DS asked for something (I don't remember what exactly). I said I'm in the middle of nursing and Ill help him out in a few minutes. Then he said he needed to go to the bathroom and he wanted me to go with him - he says he's scared to go by himself even when the light is on. We have talked a million times about how he can go by himself but when I can I take him and then sometimes leave him by himself and other times stay. In any case, I told him I'm nursing the baby and the light is on and he should go by himself. He started whining and screaming "I want Abba to take me". He wouldn't stop screaming, going to DH who was on the phone...full blown out tantrum.

What was I supposed to do ?
Once he starts screaming it's almost impossible to stop him. Nothing helps. Putting him away for time out doesn't help- it just makes him go more crazy. I tried putting him physically ,without speaking, back into him room (open door) but it doesn't help . I think he takes it as a sign of abandonment. I'm trying to send him to the corner in the playroom but that doesn't help either.

I need help , until I get to the professionals. This kind of a situation happens pretty often.
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LiLIsraeli




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Feb 06 2016, 11:38 pm
Have you tried holding him, sitting with him and comforting him? If he is experiencing all your punishments for screaming as abandonment, then maybe he needs reassurance that he isn't being abandoned.

He's not doing this to give you a hard time; he's having a hard time and needs help.
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AlwaysThinking




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Feb 06 2016, 11:53 pm
You wouldn't punish an adult for being upset. He needs more comfort, not less, when he is out of control. You need to feel sorry for him not angry and not trying to fix his tantrums.

He felt a need for something and his providers weren't providing it, he already felt abandoned before he had the tantrum and before you punished him.


Like the previous poster said, hold him, tell him it will be okay.

Also, are you finding often that when he is home you are busy with other things? Especially with a younger sibling, he might feel rejected and this could make him act up a lot. Sometimes you should probably stop nursing the baby for a few seconds (not so practical, depends on the baby really) or tell him to come and sit with you while you do, and read to him etc., make him part of it so he doesn't get the message that 'mommy is busy with the baby... she doesn't want to be busy with me.'


Last edited by AlwaysThinking on Sat, Feb 06 2016, 11:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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seeker




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Feb 06 2016, 11:53 pm
first of all, stop telling your 3-year-old that you can't help him because you're nursing the baby. That just sends the message that the baby is more important than he is and is someone to intensely dislike. Just "in a few minutes" or something else that communicates the point without drawing attention to the baby would be better.

"Putting him away for a time out" because he is screaming also does not sound appropriate for this situation. You said he has anxiety issues, it's likely that he was screaming because his needs were not met - he needed to use the bathroom and did not feel secure going alone, and now you're going to put him in time out for getting upset about that? Uh oh.

Why can't Abba take him quietly while on the phone? Or put the phone on hold for a minute? Who was on the phone that's more important than his kid?

Maybe instead try using positive encouragement: "Mommy can't take you right now but you are such a big boy I bet you can even do it yourself! Wanna try? I'm going to close my eyes and in two minutes I'm going to check the bathroom to see if you went all by yourself." And of course big positive reinforcement whenever he does go by himself. But if it's an anxiety thing then maybe he just isn't ready.

Remember, 3 is so little. Just because he already has a baby sibling doesn't mean he's all grown up.
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sped




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Feb 06 2016, 11:57 pm
One of the best suggestions I got for nursing time was to make it a special time for toddler. I used to read him books, tried to have a special snack we shared and gave him as much positive attention specifically when I nursed.
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amother
Bisque


 

Post Sun, Feb 07 2016, 12:11 am
Thank you- I love the responses I'm getting here. I need food for thought.

The therapist told me that because of his anxiety he needs more structure and more boundaries. I'm a softie by nature so the cuddling and giving him what he wants is easy for me. I've stopped nursing a few times when I was able to because his needs seemed more urgent. But once he is already screaming I feel that if I give in then I'm showing him that a tantrum is the way to go ( he was already whining and screaming when the bathroom issue came up).
He is only 3 but where is the fine line between attending to his needs and spoiling him ?

DH was actually on an important call - he tried helping but DS was screamibg so loud it was impossible.
He is very very strong willed and is constantly fighting for control- and I'm not sure how to sway him ( and me ) away from this control fight ...
I do spend lots and lots of time playing, talking , reading with him. The baby is small and sleeps a lot .

On Shabbos I thought maybe I can go with the positive 'you can do it yourself' attitude. I told him a story about a girl like him who was scared of x and how she handled it. It didnt help on the spot but I'm going to try it with your words seeker and see if it works.
I feel like such a failure of a mom:(
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amother
Bisque


 

Post Sun, Feb 07 2016, 12:14 am
LiLIsraeli wrote:


He's not doing this to give you a hard time; he's having a hard time and needs help.


This is where I'm struggling. I'm not sure if his behavior stems from having a hard time or from wanting to be in control and always get him way. He's way above his peers in intelligence and maturity. Therapist said he's trying to show that he's equal to us parents and we need to make sure he realizes he's not so that it would give him security , knowing that there's someone above him (parents) who are making sure everything is ok.
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amother
Bisque


 

Post Sun, Feb 07 2016, 12:58 am
sped wrote:
One of the best suggestions I got for nursing time was to make it a special time for toddler. I used to read him books, tried to have a special snack we shared and gave him as much positive attention specifically when I nursed.

I find nursing so hard- I need full attention on baby otherwise it doesn't work. Hopefully when baby is older- I'd love to make nursing time a special one for toddler.
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chani8




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 07 2016, 1:14 am
Deleted/edited because of OP's second post.

When he screams and falls apart, that is because his needs were not being met. He does not need to be punished for this. He needs attention. Best to stop trying to punish a 3.5 yo. They rarely need punishing at that age. Listen to him instead. He knows what he needs and he's being very clear about it. If you cannot meet his needs or they are not in his best interest, go for empathy. Empathize with his loss and reassure him that you know best.

I think maybe you are confused about setting boundaries. That doesn't mean punishing him. And it sounds like "setting boundaries" is not your style of parenting, and confusing to you, so perhaps the therapist should encourage you to find ways to meet his needs according to your warm and fuzzy style. Namely, empathize.

Read the book How to Talk so Kids Will Listen. It's totally your style.
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chani8




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 07 2016, 2:05 am
I want to add that you dont have to be afraid of giving empathy and positive attention to a tantruming child. That's old school stuff. When you feel out of control, don't you want love and attention? Same with kids.
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amother
Bisque


 

Post Sun, Feb 07 2016, 2:19 am
chani8 wrote:
You can talk to him a million times, but he needed to go to the bathroom and neither you nor your DH would help him. His fear of the bathroom is not rational, so you cannot rationalize why it's ok for him to go by himself.

I would investigate why he's afraid of the bathroom. When my son was that age, he went to cheder where big boys would harass the little boys in the bathroom. So check to be sure he's not being traumatized in the bathrooms at cheder. Meanwhile, you can walk while nursing so take him to the bathroom and be there with him. Abba can talk on the phone while son uses the potty, cant he?

When he screams and falls apart, that is because his needs were not being met. He does not need to be punished for this. He needs attention. Best to stop trying to punish a 3.5 yo. They rarely need punishing at that age. Listen to him instead. He knows what he needs and he's being very clear about it. If you cannot meet his needs or they are not in his best interest, go for empathy. Empathize with his loss and reassure him that you know best.

ETA - I think maybe you are confused about setting boundaries. That doesn't mean punishing him. And it sounds like "setting boundaries" is not your style of parenting, and confusing to you, so perhaps the therapist should encourage you to find ways to meet his needs according to your warm and fuzzy style. Like, empathize. Read the book How to Talk so Kids Will Listen. It's totally your style.


OK so he doesn't have fear specifically from the bathroom and also his tantrum didn't begin when he needed to go to the bathroom. He was already screaming and kicking because I wouldn't give him something else he wanted (I think it was a drink - I told him to wait two minutes and Ill give it to him) when he also said he needed the bathroom and wanted me to go with him. Dh was in the other room and did't know what was happening until DS went banging on his door screaming, At that point DH tried helping him out but Ds wouldn't stop screaming so I told DH to go back to the room- it was an important conference call which could change Dh's future job.
He's also not in Cheder but in a small(ish) gan. We are DL.

I see now that you addition to the post- I really do wonder if I need a different style of parenting. I feel like there are so many voices in my head, so many opinions from different people telling me oppostie things. I'm just plain confused.
I wonder about books- would it help me in specific situations where I just don't know how to react? I keep thinking that I know the theories but not how to apply them.

Wouldn't Ds turn into a brat if I always cuddle him and let him "win" and get him way?
If I were to give him everything he wanted and give up the second he screams- wouldn't he get the message that screaming helps and he can get anything he wants from me? I see that he's not afraid at other times when it's worth it for him to go places on his own. If he wakes up from nightmares I would never tell him to stop crying- these are real fears. But I'm not sure when it comes to those daily demanding things as going with him to get a toy or to the bathroom...
There was a post here last week of a mother whose entire family stepped all over her because she gave in all the time- this freaked me out. I could absolutely become like that.
I'm sorry I'm venting like this- I just feel confused and out of sources and I find myself cryin daily because I just don't know how to react to him in order to make us both happy. I know I need help and I'm waiting impatienlly for my appointemnt but until then...but in the meantime- what's the line between raising a brat and raising a kid whose needs are met?
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chani8




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 07 2016, 2:46 am
I had all that confusion too as a new mother. I even spanked my first two because of it.

Toss all that you've been told, into the trash. And go with your instincts.

My kids are not brats, but they are spoiled. And they know it. And they appreciate it. And they thank us for it.

I teach/preach constantly to my older kids, "Stop saying no!" to the little kids. Stop saying no. Dont be lazy. Get up and give. And if you did say, no, then it's ok to change your mind. Kids will outsmart us, forever. We say no and they ask why, and we can't figure out why, so, why not? So give in. Because that is the smart thing to do. I say, "you're right, I dont know why you cannot have that, so I change my mind, go ahead." When I dont have a good reason. And if I choose to say no, then I tell them, "It doesn't matter that you disagree, I said no, and in this case, it's no."

The book How to Talk wont confuse you. It's practical useful advice for communicating effectively.
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chani8




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 07 2016, 2:50 am
Structure your home so that the 3yo can get his own drink. Have a cup available for him.

The 'come with me to get a toy' or use the bathroom is all about attention and neediness. He is a big boy with lots of fears and needs to be pampered like a baby at times. This is his way of being a baby. Baby him. You wont regret babying your children. When a big boy acts like a baby, it's him being very vulnerable. This is your chance to teach him that you are a fair and trustworthy leader. That he can depend on you to have his back in his moments of weakness.
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5*Mom




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 07 2016, 2:56 am
The first thing is to stop being afraid of his tantrums and crying. If you legitimately cannot help him at that moment and you tell him you will help him as soon as you can and he tantrums, it's okay. You don't need to respond at all. Every 30 seconds or so you can repeat, "I'll be right there, one more minute, I'm almost ready..." It's okay if he tantrums and screams. He's expressing his frustration and at 3.5, that's the way they do it. Don't feel threatened by his tantrum. Then, when you finish nursing, get up calmly as if nothing happened and say, "I'm available to help you now, whenever you are ready" and wait for him to calm down and be ready. If he's really over the edge, he might need your help to calm down. You might need to get down on the floor and sit with him quietly or even hold him until he can calm himself down - whatever helps him calm down. That's not giving into a tantrum. That's being kind.

As for helping him learn that he is not your peer, if you insist that he do things himself then in his mind there is really no difference between him and you. Children learn that we are the older, wiser, caring adults by being cared for by us. When they can be vulnerable and needy and we provide for their needs - physical and emotional - with kindness and compassion, they learn that they can trust us and ultimately respect us. Without that foundation of trust, our children will not respect us.
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5*Mom




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 07 2016, 2:57 am
chani8 is wise.
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amother
Bisque


 

Post Sun, Feb 07 2016, 3:15 am
Wow that's really helpful. Thank you.

Btw he's abke and he does take things on his own, including a drink. But sometimes he doesn't want to. Especially when he's back from gan he is sort of looking for reasons to cry.

I love the honesty and kindness in your post chanu8 and the logic and honesty in yours-5 mom. Really reasonates with me.
You're both giving me hope- I'm going to try all this out when he's hone soon.
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happybeingamom




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 07 2016, 5:09 am
Before you nurse I recommend speaking to him I am going to feed the baby in a minute and I won't be able to help you. Let me take care of you now, do you need a drink, go to the bathroom, a toy etc. In other words have him settled so he doesn't have many needs when you are nursing.

I think it is normal for a child that age to want supervision to go to the bathroom, have someone take care of their needs, not being so independent. This was fairly typical for my children when they were at that age.
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anonymrs




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 07 2016, 5:14 am
Kids with anxiety do tend to feel like they need to control situations. If they are in charge, then they know what to expect in the situation. So anxiety and needing to control is very realted.

That being said, it's perfectly fine if he chooses to tantrum. You need to convey a very strong message that tantrums do not help him get his needs met. If you offer him cuddles and hugs and kisses when he tantrums, that reinforces that behavior, meaning, you will continue to see more of it. He's getting lots of attention from you (esp if you're busy with the baby in that time) and that is his goal.

Emotionally "shutting off" shows him that you are not ruffled in the slightest by his tantrum and you do not give him extra attention for it. You can still meet his physical needs by getting him a drink when you're ready or helping him go to the bathroom. Obviously, if he can not calm down on his own, you can help him when he gets to the point that he's willing to let you, but not while he's still displaying angry behaviors.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 07 2016, 5:22 am
happybeingamom wrote:
Before you nurse I recommend speaking to him I am going to feed the baby in a minute and I won't be able to help you. Let me take care of you now, do you need a drink, go to the bathroom, a toy etc. In other words have him settled so he doesn't have many needs when you are nursing.

I think it is normal for a child that age to want supervision to go to the bathroom, have someone take care of their needs, not being so independent. This was fairly typical for my children when they were at that age.

Checking in before nursing is brilliant advice!

I noticed that DD would play nicely, get her own snacks, etc. - UNTIL the phone rang. Then suddenly everything was an emergency and she had to have my attention NOW! It was absolutely maddening.

I disagree with dropping everything to run and meet your son's needs. He has to learn that he is not the center of the universe, and that other people in the house have needs too. Some times it's his turn for attention, and sometimes it's not. Let him tantrum if he needs to get it out of his system. Your baby needs you, too. (and you deserve your sanity!)
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amother
Bisque


 

Post Sun, Feb 07 2016, 5:31 am
anonymrs wrote:
Kids with anxiety do tend to feel like they need to control situations. If they are in charge, then they know what to expect in the situation. So anxiety and needing to control is very realted.

That being said, it's perfectly fine if he chooses to tantrum. You need to convey a very strong message that tantrums do not help him get his needs met. If you offer him cuddles and hugs and kisses when he tantrums, that reinforces that behavior, meaning, you will continue to see more of it. He's getting lots of attention from you (esp if you're busy with the baby in that time) and that is his goal.

Emotionally "shutting off" shows him that you are not ruffled in the slightest by his tantrum and you do not give him extra attention for it. You can still meet his physical needs by getting him a drink when you're ready or helping him go to the bathroom. Obviously, if he can not calm down on his own, you can help him when he gets to the point that he's willing to let you, but not while he's still displaying angry behaviors.


Perfect advice thank you!
FF I tend to agree with your sentiment regarding him being center of universe- I hope the advice here will help me find the correct balance .

I love the advice about talking to him befor nursing but that was just one exanple... He's really great with the baby which was unexpected. He thinks I must attend to his needs always- whether I'm in the bathroom or nursing or making food or ...
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