Moshiach | Imamother

Log in / Sign Up

List of Forums + New Post Recipe Box Usergroups Following My Posts Bookmarks

Private Messages Advanced Search Rules New User Guide FAQ Advertise Contact Us

Forum -> Judaism

Moshiach

Previous 1 2

View latest: 24h 48h 72h

shalhevet

Mon, May 28 2007, 5:45 am

EstiS wrote:

how is that not leshaim shamayim?

I already explained that. We do mitzvos because that is what Hashem told us to do, not for any other reasons.

Quote:

do you have any objections shalhevet to doing mitzvos to bring moshiach?

Of course. That is not our job. Our job is to do ratzon Hashem by learning Torah and keeping mitzvos. When Hashem decides to bring Moshiach He will do so.
If a child really loves his father, does he do what his father asks him to so that his father will give him a prize at the end?

Quote:

what is hashem's sole intent in this world?

Read the introduction to Mesillas Yesharim and you'll find out.

hadasa

Mon, May 28 2007, 9:22 am

Shalhevet - you obviously have a very different understanding of the concept of Moshiach.

The main point in the coming of Moshiach is NOT the blessings in Gashmius - those are just a side effect.
We want Moshiach because as long as we are in Golus, the Shechinah is in Golus. Our goal is the recognition of Hashem as King of the Universe. This is the purpose for which He created the world and gave us the Mitzvos.

Of course, if the Rambam's whole concept of Moshiach was (CH"V!) of candies growing from trees then to say that he was concerned with Moshiach would be belittling. But since the Rambam's understanding of Moshiach culminates with "Umalah haaretz deah es Hashem", then hastening his coming is true kavanah Leshem Shamayim.

gryp

Mon, May 28 2007, 10:17 am

I think it's Motzi Shem Ra on the Rambam to say that he did any single thing without the intent of bringing Moshiach.

TzenaRena

Mon, May 28 2007, 10:33 am

We had this discussion in another thread, maybe the one that disappeared? The Shleimus haTorah is dependent on the Geulah, because until that time, we cannot keep the majority(!) of the 613 mitzvos!

As hadasa explains, the ultimate purpose of Creation, where all existence is completely and openly united with Hashem, that the world is a "dwelling place for Hashem", that the Shechinah is "at home" here, is fulfilled in the era of Moshiach .

And this IS the ratzon Hashem, it is the very reason that He created the universe, and created Am Yisroel, and gave us the Torah and it's Mitzvos. (Medrash Tanchuma)

shalhevet wrote:

If a child really loves his father, does he do what his father asks him to so that his father will give him a prize at the end

he will do what his father asks him to make his father happy! Hashem is not happy in Galus! He wants to be reunited with His children.

Last edited by TzenaRena on Mon, May 28 2007, 11:18 am; edited 2 times in total

healthymama

Mon, May 28 2007, 10:56 am

Quote:

Rabbi Pinchos of Koritz in Imrei Pinchos states that the Rambam believed
that he himself was Moshiach.

Yeah, was that before or after his sefarim were being publically burned?

TzenaRena

Mon, May 28 2007, 11:16 am

healthymama, that is not the reason the Rambam's seforim were burnt! It was because the Moreh Nevuchim was seen as controversial, because, in the manner of chakira (philosophy), it cites questions of doubts in Torah and Judaism, and then answers them, and dispells those doubts .

The Gedolim of the generation expressed skepticism and wrote that the one who wrote the sefer Moreh Nevuchim is not the same as the one who wrote Mishneh Torah. It was NOT the Mishneh Torah that was controversial (in that time).

However, it was proven that the author was the one and the same RamBam, and in fact many were those who realized thatthey had made a mistake, for example Rabbenu Yonah.

healthymama

Mon, May 28 2007, 11:24 am

I did not mean to imply any reason for why the rambam's seforim were burned. My point was that it would be very odd for someone to regard himself as moshiach if public opinion was so against him that his books were burned.

TzenaRena

Mon, May 28 2007, 12:18 pm

GR wrote:

I think it's Motzi Shem Ra on the Rambam to say that he did any single thing without the intent of bringing Moshiach.

which reminds me of the sicha on the words of the Rambam in hilchos Parah Adumah," והעשירית יעשה המלך המשיח מהרה יגלה אכי"ר:"

why does Rambam include what appears to be a tefillah in a sefer halachos?!

It can be answered that it's a halacha that it's a constant chiyuv to keep the ashes of the Para Adumah stored for a "'mishmeres", resultantly, the mitzvah of parah aduma "demands"- calls for - the revelation of Moshiach to be the more speedily, so we should be able to prepare its ashes. Because every moment that that there are no ashes of Parah Aduma, there is lacking in the fulfillment of the commandment that there must be a constant keeping of the ashes of the para for a mishmeres.

However, the Rebbe says that this isn't sufficient because the Rambam's lashon is (rather than just a statement of halacha), clearly that of a bakashah and tefillah for the revelation of Moshiach, as it concludes "Amen, ken yehi ratzon".

The Rebbe answers that with this, the Rambam is alluding to an inyan in halacha, as he does often, alluding to (other unwritten) halachos by the precision of the order and wording of halachos..

The fact that the Rambam

comes to teach us a halachic matter.

The RamBam paskens:

TzenaRena

Mon, May 28 2007, 12:20 pm

healthymama wrote:

Since when does public opinion change truth?

Lechatchila Ariber

Mon, May 28 2007, 2:07 pm

and tzena explained, it wasn't the rambam they were against

healthymama

Mon, May 28 2007, 8:41 pm

Quote:

healthymama wrote:
I did not mean to imply any reason for why the rambam's seforim were burned. My point was that it would be very odd for someone to regard himself as moshiach if public opinion was so against him that his books were burned.
Since when does public opinion change truth?

Hmmm. Since the rambam wrote that moshiach must gather all the Jews and presumably, he would therefore be accepted by them. Although, technically, I suppose moshiach could be gathering all the Jews to watch his book burnings. Although I sort of doubt that, for some reason.

Have you learned moreh nevuchim by the way?

Motek

Thu, May 31 2007, 11:48 am

healthymama wrote:

Since the rambam wrote that moshiach must gather all the Jews and presumably, he would therefore be accepted by them.

Of course. It doesn't happen instantly though. It took years for Dovid Ha'Melech, progenitor of Moshiach and an early "model" for the Jewish monarchy, to be accepted. Rambam describes a natural process.

stem

Thu, May 31 2007, 1:47 pm

Well, the rambam wasn't mashiach in the end, so ...

hadasa

Fri, Jun 01 2007, 3:39 am

so...?

Page 2 of 2

Previous 1 2