Costumes & Appropriateness

Fox

Mon, Mar 28 2016, 1:03 pm

saw50st8 wrote:

OP, your perception of what is appropriate may not align with her perception. Or it may have just made her uncomfortable to wear clothing that you would deem appropriate.

I'm way more modern than you are and I wear sandals 99.999999% of the time from April - October. I don't put on socks or stockings for anyone even though other people think my bare legs are totally not tzanua. It's about my own personal comfort rather than your perception of what Halacha I should be following.

Unless you are willing to change to my dress code when you come to my house, please don't enforce your dress code on me in your home.

I think you don't really understand the nature of the occasion.

Visiting the home of one's Rosh HaYeshiva is not a social occasion. It is a formal situation in which yungerleit and their wives are expected to put their best feet forward. If I had to think of an analogous situation, the one that fits best would probably be a work-related dinner or party to which spouses are invited. It's just not the time or place to fly the "gotta be me" flag.

Moreover, the Rosh HaYeshiva and by extension, his rebbetzin, have a certain responsibility regarding the continued chinuch of the young families within the yeshiva. It's not a case where the OP was evaluating the tznius standards of random neighbors who dropped by for a shmooze.

It's perfectly understandable if you aren't familiar with this type of occasion, but there's a danger in projecting inaccurate assumptions and then proceeding to take offense based on the inaccuracies.

amother

Crimson

Mon, Mar 28 2016, 2:24 pm

I agree that visiting a rabbi's house warrants more respectful behavior.

But I find OP's responses terribly terribly sad.

Because the rockbottom truth is that you NEVER know. You don't really know what is going on in anyone's mind or psyche or what they're dealing with at home or with friends or anything else. Or if they just thought immaturely that they can do something crazy just for the heck of it. You just don't know how it may affect their decision making or how they present themselves.

and I would hope that someone in chinuch or his wife wouldn't use terms like throw them out of my house. or sentiments that smack of how dare they do this in my presence.

you just don't know.

that boy who didn't come back? what would you say if I said he were my son? what would you say if maybe his parents' marriage was breaking up but it was still relatively unknown? what would you say if he found out his father had an affair and his whole world was coming apart? what would you say if there were financial problems and horrible tension in his family and a way of life he took for granted was going to have to drastically change? and there could be a million other things that contribute to stupid or thoughtless actions.

No one deserves to be thrown out of someone's house. That kind of disrespect is shocking and frankly just as rude or immature or whatever. Ask nicely for the boy to change, give him something else kindly. Whatever their own behavior, you watch your own actions and judge favorably! whatever the other person, be kind! You just never know what other people have on their plate. You just don't.

WhatFor

Mon, Mar 28 2016, 2:40 pm

amother wrote:

Yup. The throwing people out reminds me of the kamtza-bar kamtza thing. The Bet HaMikdash was destroyed because of how people treated each other. Not because someone's knees were showing. Although the OP obviously did take into account the woman's feelings and treated her with respect, so this is not directed at OP.

amother

Crimson

Mon, Mar 28 2016, 2:49 pm

I found this post so disturbing I can't get it out of my head.

It made me think of a story that IIRC was about Rav Aryeh Levin who went to storekeepers who were keeping their stores open on Shabbos and just sat there watching. And finally when they asked him what he wanted, he said now I see how hard it really is for you to stop your business but still Shabbos is Shabbos.

How about instead of throwing people out or being upset with ppl's choice of dress, we speak gently like that? how about our teachers say, it must be tempting to put on outrageous costumes but still purim is purim. Can I help you find something else to wear.

I am so so sad at this to think that my son will soon leave my home and be among teachers like this. G-d should watch over and protect him!

HonesttoGod

Mon, Mar 28 2016, 2:50 pm

amother wrote:

Quote:

As a BT, I have observed that people from less-traditional backgrounds try harder not to offend their hosts, while Orthodox people who "hold differently" just follow their own way regardless of where they are or who is hosting them.

I would say this is neither. This girl comes from a highly yeshivish town (think Bnei Braq) & there's no way she doesn't know what's appropriate in the house of a Rosh Yeshiva.

I'm not sure what was unclear in the original post but yes, my husband is a Rosh Yeshiva and many talmidim come on Purim. Sometimes the wives stay in the car (saying the baby is sleeping or the kids are just too tired to come in, maybe it really means my wife is embarrassed for you to see her.)

But I think this is the first Purim I have seen actual knees. Okay, covered with leggings, but knees nonetheless.

No, I didn't say a/t. I guess I'm just venting.

You know, they used to say, when you're not sure about buying an article of clothing, think if you'd be embarrassed to go to the Godol Hador in that clothing. I guess today embarrassment has gone the way of corded phones and horse-drawn carriages.

All I can see here is a hugely judgmental attitude and a lot of assumptions.

1) You assume she knows what is appropriate in a Ravs house. Just because she comes from BB doesn't mean anything.
2) You assume that when they say the baby is sleeping or their wives are tired they are lying because their wives are not dressed what you label as "appropriately" to come inside? Well let me try tackle this a: babies DO sleep b: especially on Purim, all day in the car, they fall asleep a lot c: many women don't feel the need to go to their husbands Rosh Yeshivas house especially if they know that his wife will be judging her. and then posting it on a public forum. d: If I were you I would prefer the wife stays in the car with the kids as opposed to bringing a bunch of cranky hyper junked up tired kids into my house.
3) You didn't see "actual" knees. You saw leggings covering someones knees. To many that is considered covered. To others it isn't but to many it is and therefore she sees nothing wrong with it.
4) I wouldn't go to a gadol hador in most of my clothes. That doesn't mean I think they are inappropriate but because I generally wouldn't dress in shabbos clothing every day.
I am sorry to bust your bubble but a rosh yeshiva generally doesn't fall under the same umbrella as a gadol hador.

and finally, 5) Let's switch the rolls here - what kind of important rosh yeshivas wife, one who is horrified at seeing someones leggings and thinks it is wrong and inappropriate to come to her house dressed up, is online?

(Let the bashing begin).

Fox

Mon, Mar 28 2016, 4:29 pm

Chloe wrote:

In Chareidi communities covering knees with a skirt is Halacha, but doesn't mean for those who are not Chareidi and don't, that they are making fun of Halachah.

Correct. I think we all understand that. However, what other people do is entirely irrelevant to this case.

When they use vomiting emoticons and make sarcastic comments about how "shocking" knees are, then, yes, they're making fun of halacha, the individual OP, and women who hold by the halacha that knees must be covered.

And defending mockery because they found the OP to be unsympathetic just underscores the whole sad endeavor.

HonesttoGod wrote:

All can see here is a hugely judgmental attitude and a lot of assumptions.

1) You assume she knows what is appropriate in a Ravs house. Just because she comes from BB doesn't mean anything.
2) You assume that when they say the baby is sleeping or their wives are tired they are lying because their wives are not dressed what you label as "appropriately" to come inside? Well let me try tackle this a: babies DO sleep b: especially on Purim, all day in the car, they fall asleep a lot c: many women don't feel the need to go to their husbands Rosh Yeshivas house especially if they know that his wife will be judging her. and then posting it on a public forum. d: If were you would prefer the wife stays in the car with the kids as opposed to bringing a bunch of cranky hyper junked up tired kids into my house.
3) You didn't see "actual" knees. You saw leggings covering someones knees. To many that is considered covered. To others it isn't but to many it is and therefore she sees nothing wrong with it.
4) wouldn't go to a gadol hador in most of my clothes. That doesn't mean think they are inappropriate but because generally wouldn't dress in shabbos clothing every day.
am sorry to bust your bubble but a rosh yeshiva generally doesn't fall under the same umbrella as a gadol hador.

and finally, 5) Let's switch the rolls here - what kind of important rosh yeshivas wife, one who is horrified at seeing someones leggings and thinks it is wrong and inappropriate to come to her house dressed up, is online?

Everyone is reaching further and further into the realm of "not getting it."

Again, this is not a social situation. Nor is this a neighborhood situation where people with different standards come into contact or some kind of kiruv situation.

The fact that the OP's tone is a bit off-putting doesn't mean the young woman's action was correct. It just means there's more wrong to go around.

A young woman who (a) has reached the point of marrying a boy who learns in kollel; (b) has been interviewed by the Rosh HaYeshiva before accepting her husband into the kollel; and (c) has lived for more than two weeks in that community . . . would know perfectly well that she needs to cover her knees.

It really boils down to

1. The young woman was wrong; and
2. The OP (who was really just venting) needs to think about how best to influence kollel wives rather than succumb to curmudeonliness, which isn't a good look on anyone.

amother

Periwinkle

Mon, Mar 28 2016, 5:18 pm

Okay, I also said,

Quote:

Sometimes the wives stay in the car (saying the baby is sleeping or the kids are just too tired to come in, maybe it really means my wife is embarrassed for you to see her.)

And several people, I think, jumped on me.

Right, I get it your kids are hyped up and/or sleeping & you don't want to come in. Though many do.

But I was also trying to be DLKZ that sometimes you might feel your dress is not appropriate to come in, and I really appreciate that! I wasn't saying it to be snarky.

Okay, whatever, I'll go be curmudgeonly about something else. I think this horse is mostly beaten to death. So Haman won't be leading him and Mordechai won't be riding him.

mummiedearest

Mon, Mar 28 2016, 5:39 pm

op, lots of people here are giving you possible reasons for her behavior. here's one that you may not have thought of:

maybe she did it on purpose. as a protest. maybe her husband wanted her to stay in the car but she insisted on coming with. maybe she's unhappy with the kollel lifestyle, it was sold to her as the best thing for her marriage and it's not working for her. maybe she's angry and doesn't know how to communicate it to her husband or he just won't listen because HE is happy. maybe she's on her way to being done with the whole frum lifestyle because she feels she was lied to by her educators.

of course, this may not be the case. and yes, I know that lots of couples are happy in kollel, this is not meant to bash the whole idea. there are plenty of women out there who are NOT happy with it, though, and it's possible she is one of them. (and yes, I know that unhappy does not mean ready to give up religion, but it's not unheard of.) now that you know this is a possibility, what are you going to do about it? here's what I suggest you do: tell your husband that you think he should have a chat with her husband. he should ask the husband if there are any concerns he wants to discuss, have a discussion about finances in general, and emphasize the importance of keeping your wife happy. he should also mention that there is a time to leave kollel, and it's not always the time planned in advance. life happens, and it needs to be a regular discussion between husband and wife.

bringing respect into the issue does mean you're stuck on it. not necessarily to a bad degree, but the fact is, nobody was hurt by this. she came, she went. if it doesn't make sense to you, though, something is wrong. sometimes it's as simple as universal standards slipping or lack of knowledge of proper etiquette. sometimes it's more. I don't see how a conversation between rosh yeshiva and student on the above could be harmful.

Fox

Mon, Mar 28 2016, 6:31 pm

amother wrote:

Quote:

succumb to curmudeonliness

Moi? Oy vey. To mix languages.

I guess if by curmudgeon, you mean
a crusty, ill-tempered, and usually old man

you thereby accuse me of being all of the above? Wow.

All I said, I think, is that it's not very respectful to go to your husband's Rosh Yeshiva with your skirt above your knees. But let me go check if I said more than that.

Yes, you definitely said more than that!

The specific phrase that caught my attention was,

Quote:

I guess today embarrassment has gone the way of corded phones and horse-drawn carriages.

Concluding that multiple generations are lacking in respect and decency simply because of one young woman's stupidity is not only inaccurate, it is insulting the the many kollel wives who presumably visited your home on Purim and who dressed and conducted themselves appropriately.

But please try not to snatch defeat from my eager jaws when I'm endeavoring to offer you up victory! The young woman was 100 percent wrong to wear a too-short skirt to your home. No question about it. And you were 100 percent correct to notice it. That's part of your job.

Now, does that mean that she is an inherently disrespectful young woman? Does it mean that she intended insult to you or the Rosh HaYeshiva?

IMHO, it is unlikely. Unless there's more to the story, a young woman who has made a commitment to kollel life, however immature she might be, is probably not someone who truly disregards tznius and is truly indifferent to the choshivos of the Rosh HaYeshiva.

More likely, she convinced herself that the skirt wasn't really so bad or that it wasn't noticeable when worn with leggings.

So the question is, what do you do about it? Part of the answer is to shake your head and say, "What on earth was she thinking?" I think all of us who are parents do that regularly. I can only imagine that a Rosh HaYeshiva and his rebbetzin must have the opportunity to do it constantly!

But the other part of the answer is, "Figure out how to inspire young kollel wives to set the standard in tznius rather than reaching for the lowest common denominator."

As for curmudgeonliness referring to men, I'm an equal opportunity employer! Smile

saw50st8

Tue, Mar 29 2016, 6:59 am

Fox wrote:

I'm well aware of the situation. I myself come from a "mixed" marriage where my husband is much more right wing than I am. I have found myself in similar situations and no, I'm not changing my mode of dress for others.

I don't ban turtlenecks from my house even though seeing someone else wear them makes me literally gag and feel like I'm choking. I choose my wardrobe based on what I feel is appropriate. You choose your wardrobe based on what you feel is appropriate. Let's respect each other enough to allow our wardrobe to define who the other person thinks we are.

Dandelion1

Tue, Mar 29 2016, 9:42 am

saw50st8 wrote:

I agree with this premise for many situations in life in which relationships are equal: siblings, friends, one's own home, day to day life. But in a situation in which one is entering the home of someone to whom respect is owed, as is the case here going to a Rosh Yeshiva's home, I think there is a shift, and it is respectful and appropriate to conform to their standards.

In linguistics, there are complex rules (largely subsconciously applied) governing language use, in situations in which there are two languages spoken, even in situations in which there are differing dialects used, as to which language is chosen to be used, and by whom. Concepts of respect based on age, social status, and the like are largely at play. In other words, if my mother-in-law's first language is Hebrew, and mine is English, I am the one who will switch to Hebrew, not she to English.

As a child, when my mother used to take us shopping in boro park, she made us all change out of our scruffy shorts and sneakers and put on skirts and blouses. She felt that we were entering a neighborhood that wasn't ours, and we should show respect to those who lived there. If someone with differing standards came to our home, it never would have occurred to her to change clothing.