What's the point? | Imamother

DrMom

Thu, Apr 14 2016, 1:16 am

amother wrote:

Can someone explain to me what might be the point of a random stranger man (always black men, in my experience) to yell at me "you're gorgeous" when I am walking briskly past and he clearly doesn't have a chance with me and I clearly won't stop for him? What kind of enjoyment can he get out of it? Or is he just trying to harass women?

I think this is the correct answer.

I seriously doubt that this man thinks a married woman pushing a baby stroller appreciates random comments about her physique shouted at her in public by a total stranger. I'm just not buying that.

For those of you who claim this is all a cultural misunderstanding: I would gave that excuse credibility only if we are talking about someone who *very recently* immigrated to the US (where I assume the OP lives) from another country where this behavior is actually considered acceptable. Otherwise, I'm fairly certain we can assume this person knows he is just harassing women.

moonstone

Thu, Apr 14 2016, 1:48 am

DrMom wrote:

Of course these men know they're harassing women. Women have been complaining about this sort of thing for many, many years - these men haven't been living in a cave. I can't believe other WOMEN are so willing to excuse this disgusting behavior with the unbelievable "it's just their culture!" argument.

OP, absolutely do not answer these harassers. Just ignore them.

FranticFrummie

Thu, Apr 14 2016, 10:08 am

moonstone wrote:

I don't think it's excusing their behavior, but rather explaining it. There's a difference.

Black men's culture is very attracted to fertility. A woman with kids is actually more attractive, because it proves that she's "a breeder". Having lots of kids is a sign of virility among certain Black men, and the more, the better. Getting women pregnant can be an Olympic sport with some of them. I've heard men brag about how many "baby mamas" they have.

That doesn't make anything they say OK, by a long shot. It's just a glimpse into the cultural mindset.

HonesttoGod

Thu, Apr 14 2016, 11:05 am

Fox wrote:

Actually, it's a cultural thing. I'll try to find some titles, but there are a number of books and articles written about seemingly weird little differences in African-American and European-American culture. When I was working in multi-cultural urban settings years ago, I found them incredibly helpful, and talking about them is a great ice-breaker when two or more cultural groups have to work together.

Unless it's accompanied by a physical move, the kind of interaction you're describing is simply considered a compliment, a way of bringing a little more joy into the world and letting you know that you've been noticed and appreciated. It's not meant to embarrass you or demean you, and it's not meant as any type of proposition. The right response is a smile, saying "thank you," and/or "you have a good day."

I know. The same thing would be totally creepy if done by most European-American guys. But if you respond with a smile and a word or two of thanks, you find that it really does make your day better to have had someone thank you just for being your adorable self.

Yup! I never understood why people get up in arms about guys whistling at them in the street or saying hey beautiful etc. Hello he just complimented me? I feel good and s-xy now thank you! LOL

amother

Navy

Thu, Apr 14 2016, 12:12 pm

I'm not sure if you all realize that much of this discussion is pure racism disguised as some weird sort of cultural tolerance.

Perhaps catcalls and the like are more prevalent amongst a certain demographic of males: undereducated, unemployed, unmarried, young, etc, but this behavior is specific to those factors, not due to some absurd theory that black culture as a whole finds this to be normal and acceptable.

I work in a setting filled with professional black men and women and I assure you that none of them engage in this behavior or consider it normal and acceptable. Just.... stop....

Fox

Thu, Apr 14 2016, 12:28 pm

Basically, we're talking about the degree of assimilation we expect from people.

Highly-assimilated black men do not pay these kinds of "compliments." They've learned that women in the dominant culture find it offensive. Less-assimilated black men, less socially-savvy black men, or bored black young men (who would be hanging out on Imamother bein hazmanim if they were frum) don't always quite get it.

But this is really something out of Sociology 101, or at least Sociology 202. This particular practice is very well-documented, and we even know the specific markers in the interaction that are significant:

* The speaker did not make a physical move. Had the man physically moved in order to approach her, we can be pretty sure that his intent was not benign. A physical movement signals aggression in this scenario.

* The speaker used the expression, "Ma'am." In African-American culture, which is rooted in the South, this is a signal that the speaker wishes to create distance between himself and the person to whom he's speaking. That distance may be based on respect, perceived social status, or lack of familiarity.

* The speaker did not reference a specific s-xual activity, use profanity, or attempt to be anonymous. Had any of these been true, the intent would not have been benign.

If you live in a multi-cultural urban area, you're going to run into people who are annoyingly and offensively unassimilated. Avoiding those interactions is why people move to more insular communities.

I completely understand the argument that people need to assimilate and get with the program. That said, it's a slippery slope, and one that can be especially rocky for observant Jews in America. I figure if some random black guy has to put up with all the things that clueless Jews do, I can cut him a little slack and not get too bent out of shape over a practice that, obnoxious as we might find it, isn't intended to be hurtful.

FranticFrummie

Thu, Apr 14 2016, 12:37 pm

I don't see anyone saying ALL Black men do this. If so, please call it out.

I do see people saying "some" and "sometimes" and many other qualifiers. All people of all stripes have segments of their society that do things that are offensive. Just look at the thread about Jews being financially crooked, and you'll see that SOME of us are not immune.

Look at it this way. Most plates are made out of ceramic, but not all ceramic items are plates, and some plates are made of plastic. Reading comprehension is a skill, and so is basic logic.

Every culture has an area that is going to clash somewhere with someone else's culture. The point is, how to navigate that clash as graciously as possible. Do you shake hands with men? Why not? Refusing is highly offensive!

DrMom

Thu, Apr 14 2016, 2:19 pm

amother wrote:

ITA.

amother

Navy

Thu, Apr 14 2016, 2:53 pm

FranticFrummie wrote:

Yes, I do shake hands.

I didn't think anyone said all black men do this, I was reacting to the contention that this is a culturally acceptable practice in black society. I don't believe it is. I think it is isolated to a specific subsection of men within that culture, and that a similar subsection of men within other cultures demonstrate similar behaviors.

I, for one, know that I have gotten catcalls from men of various nationalities and cultures, and none of them were were wearing suits and rushing to work, or were college students on their way to class, or were on the way to the park with their 3 kids, or in a grocery store shopping for their families.

Fox

Thu, Apr 14 2016, 4:29 pm

amother wrote:

I didn't think anyone said all black men do this, I was reacting to the contention that this is a culturally acceptable practice in black society. I don't believe it is. I think it is isolated to a specific subsection of men within that culture, and that a similar subsection of men within other cultures demonstrate similar behaviors.

I re-read the thread, and nobody said that it is "culturally acceptable." What was said is that it has a different cultural meaning. The OP wondered why men would do this, and I attempted to explain that, based on various specific details, the man probably did not intend to offend. At worst, he probably meant to tease her a little.

This is not something I or anyone else just made up to excuse the man's behavior. It's a documented phenomenon and is discussed widely among African-Americans, many of whom are extremely embarrassed by it and some of whom think it's just another case of oversensitive white women.

However, it's not really accurate to lump it in with the kind of aggressive, profane, and explicit catcalling that signals an attempt to dominate a woman or punish her.

amother wrote:

I, for one, know that I have gotten catcalls from men of various nationalities and cultures, and none of them were were wearing suits and rushing to work, or were college students on their way to class, or were on the way to the park with their 3 kids, or in a grocery store shopping for their families.

Marvelous, so we've established that men of any race or nationality who belong to our socio-economic group behave in ways that are acceptable within that group! Excellent! Let's award ourselves the smug tolerance award of the week!

Of course the men who are pretty much just like us except for race/nationality behave . . . pretty much just like us. That's always been the joke about why public life in Minnesota is so civil: a state full of people from parts of Scandanavia who are able to get along well with people from completely different parts of Scandanavia.

There seems to be a notion afloat that not being racist, etc., means refusing to acknowledge genuine differences among groups of people. Everything I've been taught and experienced suggests that the truth is just the opposite. The best multi-racial/multi-cultural relationships I've had involved affectionate honesty about those differences and how they can drive you crazy.

Is it fair for the OP to be annoyed by this man's behavior? Of course! But I'm not sure that it warrants taking offense. Personally, I'm saving all mine for people who block grocery store aisles with their shopping carts while they wander around in another part of the store.

greenfire

Thu, Apr 14 2016, 7:28 pm

took a walk on the boardwalk in the glorious sun & to my amusement one guy [walking with his wife & kid] overheard me tell my daughter I was wearing a green sweatshirt [no surprise there] and said yes what a great sweatshirt - I said thank you and smiled

further down a guy says "I love you" I said "you can't love me you don't know me" so he repeated "I love you" & I said "well I like your bright pants"

I am none worse for the wear - as a matter of fact it made me giggle

sometimes things are in your own perception - none of them meant more than what a glorious day for a bright spring colour Sunny