Home
Log in / Sign Up
    Private Messages   Advanced Search   Rules   New User Guide   FAQ   Advertise   Contact Us  
Forum -> Yom Tov / Holidays -> Shabbos, Rosh Chodesh, Fast Days, and other Days of Note
Kamtza and bar kamtza



Post new topic   Reply to topic View latest: 24h 48h 72h

MitzadSheini




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 04 2014, 6:16 am
Hi this is my first ever post so I hope that this is not too controversial. I was just reading the kamtza and bar kamtza story with my kids and I realized hey - bar kamtza WAS a pretty nasty fellow. After all, he informed against the Jews to the Romans, and even deliberately damaged a korban. It would seem that the host actually had a VERY good reason to hate him and throw him out of the party. But for this so called sinat 'chinam', we are still all living in galus. I was just thinking about the modern day, and how this applies. I mean for me personally, at the moment, it's the what I consider to be the misguided Jew who wants to publicly side with the Palestisnians in the current Gaza conflict. Maybe thati it exactly the kind of person for whom I am supposed to some how muster 'ahavat chinam'.

Thoughts anyone???? How to really achieve this if it is what is required???

May this be our last ever fast of tisha b'av,because next year may it be a yontif!!!!
Back to top

greenfire




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 19 2016, 10:51 am
In my humble opinion, it's our lifelong battle. Not one that started with Kamtza & bar Kamtza and the confusion with each other - although they were also hatred warmongers.

So how far back can we go as humans. The first sin between man & man was Cayin killing his very own brother, Hevel. Why because of hatred & jealousy. While they were bringing korbanos to Hashem nonetheless.

Our life battle is to overcome this death by ridding the yetzer of baseless hatred. Only then will there be reparation for this sin. Only then can we be zoche to build the third Beis HaMikdash with Moshiach.

As to how to achieve this ...

We have to humble ourselves. We have to think before we act. We are all humans with frailties as such. We have to consider another person's vulnerabilities as our very own. This is the true meaning of
love thy friend as thyself ~ ואהבת לרעך כמוך
Back to top

imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 20 2016, 4:53 am
mtzadhasheini wrote:
Hi this is my first ever post so I hope that this is not too controversial. I was just reading the kamtza and bar kamtza story with my kids and I realized hey - bar kamtza WAS a pretty nasty fellow. After all, he informed against the Jews to the Romans, and even deliberately damaged a korban. It would seem that the host actually had a VERY good reason to hate him and throw him out of the party. But for this so called sinat 'chinam', we are still all living in galus. I was just thinking about the modern day, and how this applies. I mean for me personally, at the moment, it's the what I consider to be the misguided Jew who wants to publicly side with the Palestisnians in the current Gaza conflict. Maybe thati it exactly the kind of person for whom I am supposed to some how muster 'ahavat chinam'.

Thoughts anyone???? How to really achieve this if it is what is required???

May this be our last ever fast of tisha b'av,because next year may it be a yontif!!!!

Well since you posted a link to this, and it's already been bumped ...

The text does not tell us what Bar Kamtza was like before the party, his informing and damaging the korban happened later. So we really don't know if the host had a good reason to dislike him or to throw him out of the party. He could have been a nasty person all along, or he could have snapped, or maybe he was warped all along but no one knew, or people had a good reason to dislike him, but no one expected that from him.

Maybe also if you're trying to display ahavat chinam to someone you think is comparable to Bar Kamtza, it might be better to seem sincere, and not let on that you're "some how mustering" those feelings. Perhaps also letting them know about your comparison might be counterproductive ...
Back to top

MitzadSheini




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 20 2016, 5:29 am
imasoftov wrote:


Maybe also if you're trying to display ahavat chinam to someone you think is comparable to Bar Kamtza, it might be better to seem sincere, and not let on that you're "some how mustering" those feelings. Perhaps also letting them know about your comparison might be counterproductive ...


The reference was not meant as a comparison, but as a kal vChomer. I DO NOT think ***anyone*** is anything like as bad as Bar Kamtza!!!!! My point was that we are in galus now for not including a person who, objectively, it seems fair enough to "leave out of the party". (this applies whether or not he was already bad, or the non-inclusive behavior of others made him bad). How much more so do we need to include EVERY one, especially every Jew. And not ostracise anyone. Even if their opinions are different. Even if they are "weird".
Back to top

5*Mom




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 20 2016, 7:13 am
mtzadhasheini wrote:
Hi this is my first ever post so I hope that this is not too controversial. I was just reading the kamtza and bar kamtza story with my kids and I realized hey - bar kamtza WAS a pretty nasty fellow. After all, he informed against the Jews to the Romans, and even deliberately damaged a korban. It would seem that the host actually had a VERY good reason to hate him and throw him out of the party. But for this so called sinat 'chinam', we are still all living in galus.

That is not how the gemara concludes the story. The gemara here says nothing at all about sinat chinam. You have to learn it all the way through until the end, including the seemingly irrelevant but actually very relevant interludes and find the common thread among them. It isn't sinat chinam. (The gemara elsewhere mentions sinat chinam but this is the primary mention of Kamtza and Bar Kamtza.)
Back to top

Rubber Ducky




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 20 2016, 8:56 am
Wow, I thought this thread would be about un-inviting a guest to the seder!
Back to top

imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 20 2016, 9:08 am
5*Mom wrote:
That is not how the gemara concludes the story. The gemara here says nothing at all about sinat chinam. You have to learn it all the way through until the end, including the seemingly irrelevant but actually very relevant interludes and find the common thread among them. It isn't sinat chinam. (The gemara elsewhere mentions sinat chinam but this is the primary mention of Kamtza and Bar Kamtza.)

Good point. The conclusion of the Kamtza and Bar Kamtza story in Gittin has Rabbi Yochanan blaming Rabbi Zecharia ben Avkolos and then there are criticisms of the biryonim. Two pages later (57a) there's another comment about not putting people to shame as was done to Bar Kamtza. And then come other two stories in the sequence that explain what incident lead to the destruction of other places, in which the cause is people attacking the Romans.

Maybe part of the message beyond the specific actions criticized is things don't always happen due to exactly one cause. But I'm pretty sure that one of messages of the gemara on nearly every page is "things are more complicated than you initially thought".

And then there's the following

Misconception:According to rabbinic tradition, the destruction of the Second Beit Hamikdash (Temple) can be attributed solely to sinat chinam—gratuitous hatred.

Fact: Some rabbinic sources do, indeed, attribute the destruction to sinat chinam. But other sages have identified additional causes for this national tragedy.

None of this is to be understood as supporting hate ...
Back to top

MitzadSheini




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 20 2016, 9:10 am
Rubber Ducky wrote:
Wow, I thought this thread would be about un-inviting a guest to the seder!


Lol! thank you for making that connection! that was funny. It's kind of a spinoff of the being judgmental thread.

And imastov & 5mom it's really been a long time since I learned this so I don't ready know but you sound like you know what you you are talking about.

I only have one basic point - let's be nice to each other. Especially if we disagree
Back to top
Page 1 of 1 Recent Topics




Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum -> Yom Tov / Holidays -> Shabbos, Rosh Chodesh, Fast Days, and other Days of Note

Related Topics Replies Last Post
Nice top for dropping in to a bar mitzvah
by amother
8 Yesterday at 9:57 pm View last post
How do I dress her for the bar mitzva?
by amother
23 Yesterday at 4:19 pm View last post
Bar mitzvah kiddush pastry help
by amother
2 Yesterday at 9:19 am View last post
Bar mitzvah dress help!
by amother
3 Tue, Mar 19 2024, 11:38 am View last post
Can someone find me a dress for bar mitzvah?
by amother
1 Tue, Mar 19 2024, 6:16 am View last post