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Forum
-> Interesting Discussions
marina
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Tue, Apr 26 2016, 10:24 am
That's why a 2 year old doesn't get a fine. No long lasting damages so it's not an assault and the hymen grows back ( theoretically) so family honor and virgin value are not an issue.
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Aylat
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Tue, Apr 26 2016, 11:07 am
Wouldn't the other categories of compensation apply to rape as to assault: pain, embarrassment, healing and shevet (can't think of English phrase, sorry - compensation for lost wages during recovery).
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marina
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Tue, Apr 26 2016, 11:25 am
Aylat wrote: | Wouldn't the other categories of compensation apply to rape as to assault: pain, embarrassment, healing and shevet (can't think of English phrase, sorry - compensation for lost wages during recovery). |
I dk but I think these would apply only if there was actual long term physical damage, such as torn body parts. Not psychological harm.
All of these are my conclusions after considering everything we have discussed in this thread. I did not have these conclusions when I wrote the post.
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Aylat
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Tue, Apr 26 2016, 12:35 pm
marina wrote: | I dk but I think these would apply only if there was actual long term physical damage, such as torn body parts. Not psychological harm. . |
I also don't know bec I have not learned the halachot in detail but I would have assumed they do. Anyone have a source or can ask a rav? I would be interested to know.
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ora_43
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Thu, Apr 28 2016, 3:07 am
marina wrote: | Quote: | Part of the issue is that until very recently, consent didn't make things OK. The "as long as it's between two consenting adults, it's fine" mentality is recent. Back in Rav Huna's day, it would have been strange to talk about how forcing a woman to have s-x was terrible, when having consensual s-x with that same woman would also be terrible. |
I think this is the crucial point here. Consent is not an concept in Halacha so rape doesn't get its own special category- it is just an assault. Exception is for when the family's honor is at stake, such as when a virgin is raped. |
Consent is definitely a concept in halacha. But consent doesn't make s-x OK.
L'havdil, it's like how parents today don't say "kids, never inject your friends with heroin by force." Because, yeah, that would be a really horrible thing to do to someone, but saying it implies that injecting your friends with heroin with their consent is something that might happen. Again, l'havdil.
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ora_43
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Thu, Apr 28 2016, 4:02 am
marina wrote: | So a non-virgin: if she is raped and there are no physical marks, I posit, there would be no moral condemnation for the rape and no fine at all. |
That seems to me like a very odd supposition. There are relatively few moral condemnations in the Torah (written Torah or gemara) regarding specific crimes. And those condemnations that exist tend to be about specifically religious crimes, which aren't as obvious; there's very little along the lines of "Killing babies is extra bad" or "only someone who's total scum would put out someone's eyes" or "causing a woman to miscarry would be very upsetting for her" or "what kind of freak would want to have s-x with a cow, anyway."
The focus is almost entirely on the nitty gritty details of what damages need to be paid. For *every* crime. But from there to assuming that the focus on dry details means there's no recognition of those crimes being evil - why?
Especially when we do have evidence for that not being true. Eg, again, the story of pilegesh b'givaa. Yes, that was a case of murder and not "just" rape, but OTOH the universal reaction, from every other tribe, of "we must burn out the evil" seems to be clearly about the gang rape (of, ftr, a woman who wasn't married and wasn't a virgin) and not just the fact that someone was killed.
Quote: | In other words, I'm looking for an acknowledgment of rape as a psychologically harmful crime above and beyond torn body parts, if any, or family honor and virgin market value. |
But the ideas of psychological harm and family honor are intertwined. See eg the end of the story of Dina and Shechem, where Levi and Shimon reply to their father (Breishit 34). Commentary (Rashi and Sifreinu) explains that "k'zona" means "hefker" - ie, the insult to the family honor is that Shechem and his people acted as if Dina could be mistreated and nobody would fight for her.
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ora_43
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Thu, Apr 28 2016, 4:06 am
marina wrote: | None of this is really at stake here. |
I think my last question is still very relevant. Are separate condemnations of the various aspects of rape not condemnations of rape, in your opinion? Eg does "statement condemning physical assault + statement condemning s-x outside marriage + statement condemning causing emotional upset = condemnation of rape" or not.
On the one hand, I can see why you'd want more than that, OTOH, I think it'd be odd to assume that "statement condemning physical assault + statement condemning s-x outside marriage + statement condemning causing emotional upset = rape is no worse than pushing someone."
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ora_43
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Thu, Apr 28 2016, 4:07 am
marina wrote: | Whether there is an actual physical punishment reflecting this moral condemnation or just a sharp statement from Rav Huna- I don't really care at this point. |
So you're disturbed by the lack of a physical punishment because you think physical punishment would reflect condemnation of the crime, but imposing a fine (no matter how high) doesn't?
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