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Forum -> Yom Tov / Holidays -> Pesach
Seder - is this normal?



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amother
Jade


 

Post Tue, Apr 26 2016, 3:55 pm
My DH and I invited a couple of families for one of the Sedarim and they both did things that I perceived to be a bit rude but I am trying to give the benefit of the doubt here and am wondering if they did what they did because that's their custom. DH and I have both been to many sedarim but haven't seen this before.

Both families asked what to bring. I don't bring outside food into my house on Pesach (to avoid accepting from some but not others) so I told each they could bring some wine. Each brought one bottle, which they placed by themselves on the table and did not offer to others. That was strange. They drank the other wine I had put on the table when theirs ran out.

Second, they brought their own matza, matza cover, and did their own afikomen.

Third, they did their own kiddush, which is not so weird, but they did it at their own time, without waiting till the group had gotten there.

It really felt like they came to my house to do their own Seder and I cooked and cleaned for them. Not like they came to do it all together with us. It was bizarre. I've hosted lots of folks who hold by chumras that we don't hold by and am happy to accommodate, but this was different.

Both of these families are American BT and I'm wondering if they just learned to do differently than DH and I've seen before. Is anyone here familiar with this way of doing Seder? I don't feel comfortable asking them.
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cnc




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 26 2016, 3:57 pm
Own matza , matzah cover, afikomen and kiddush is totally normal...(at least in my circles).
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tichellady




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 26 2016, 5:24 pm
It does sound weird but I wonder if once of them started making kiddush at his own pace the other ones thought that was expected. Honestly, if we were hosting we would make it clear that we are going along together so there wouldn't be any confusion. They sound socially off, but that doesn't mean they were trying to use you.
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cm




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 26 2016, 6:12 pm
Not rude, just different.

Some people make their own kiddush routinely; others have never heard if the practice. Same for reading the haggada all together or at your own pace, and for a host of other Seder customs.

I have never seen this myself, but according to many Imamothers it is expected to bring your own wine and matzah, and rude if you don't. Perhaps they shared wine from the table when they saw others doing it.

I really would just call it a learning experience all around. The fact that they were BTs doesn't mean much. Some people are exposed to many different practices as they forge their new path; others learn only one custom and are not as familiar with others. Same is true for FFB people as well.
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finprof




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 26 2016, 6:47 pm
We always bring wine and matzah just so we won't be such a financial strain on our hosts but we bring lots of extra, not just for us.
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married123




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 26 2016, 7:11 pm
I think its normal and acceptable to bring own wine, matzo. Many people make their own or like specific types.. also as someone else said about making it easier financially... I can understand why you were hurt of you never saw this before... it wasn't anything personal
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amother
Jade


 

Post Tue, Apr 26 2016, 7:13 pm
Thanks everyone for the replies. It helps me be DLZ. DH and I have seen a lot of Seder customs, but neither of us had seen this before so it was a surprise. I also thought the wine might be a thing about paying for your own wine, but didn't think it made sense since they didn't bring enough for themselves.

I'll be happy to tell DH that this was just different "good manners" than we're accustomed to Smile

In what circles is brining your own wine and matza expected? Just curious since it's all new to me and I'm realizing that there's a whole world out there of customs with which I am not familiar.
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youngishbear




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 26 2016, 7:22 pm
Just so you know, in some circles it's expected that even children bring their own matzah and sometimes also wine when being hosted by their own parents. The expense is high enough and with the plethora of types of matzos out there and everyone's issues around them all, it's expected that everyone take care of their own.
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cnc




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 26 2016, 7:22 pm
amother wrote:
Thanks everyone for the replies. It helps me be DLZ. DH and I have seen a lot of Seder customs, but neither of us had seen this before so it was a surprise. I also thought the wine might be a thing about paying for your own wine, but didn't think it made sense since they didn't bring enough for themselves.

I'll be happy to tell DH that this was just different "good manners" than we're accustomed to Smile

In what circles is brining your own wine and matza expected? Just curious since it's all new to me and I'm realizing that there's a whole world out there of customs with which I am not familiar.


Some people are makpid to use only matzah that they themselves baked.

Other people bring matzah and wine because they're big expenses and don't want to burden their host.
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seeker




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 26 2016, 8:31 pm
Most people (afaik) consider it basic etiquette to bring one's own matzah and wine to a seder, and to use one's own, because those are both very expensive items that everyone needs a whole bunch of. If they only brought one bottle and used yours when theirs ran out, I'd assume they planned poorly and would kind of wonder why since everyone knows each person needs four cups per seder. Oh well. However I also understand your confusion as it seems there was a miscommunication; when a guest asks a host "what can I bring" that leaves a little ambiguity and it makes sense for the host to assume they mean what contribution can they bring for the group.

Many hold that each adult male should have their own matzah as well as challah when it's not Pesach. Most people are not makpid on the challah all year but do it for matzah because with a lot of people present there otherwise wouldn't be enough to go around. Everyone is supposed to eat at least some of the 3 seder matzahs at each point (motzi, korech, afikomen.)

I'm with you that it would have been socially appropriate to either make kiddush together with the group OR wait until after the others made kiddush before making their own.

In my experience, as hosts gain more hosting experience they gradually become better and better at emceeing in a way that everyone knows what to do at all times. Meanwhile you can just shrug it off as a learning experience.
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seeker




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 26 2016, 8:34 pm
Next time:
"In our home everyone participates in DH's seder; if you want your own seder plate/matzah/kiddush please bring whatever you need yourself and we'll wait for you to do yours after DH leads."
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amother
Denim


 

Post Wed, Apr 27 2016, 3:50 am
seeker wrote:
Most people (afaik) consider it basic etiquette to bring one's own matzah and wine to a seder, and to use one's own, because those are both very expensive items that everyone needs a whole bunch of. If they only brought one bottle and used yours when theirs ran out, I'd assume they planned poorly and would kind of wonder why since everyone knows each person needs four cups per seder. Oh well. However I also understand your confusion as it seems there was a miscommunication; when a guest asks a host "what can I bring" that leaves a little ambiguity and it makes sense for the host to assume they mean what contribution can they bring for the group.

Many hold that each adult male should have their own matzah as well as challah when it's not Pesach. Most people are not makpid on the challah all year but do it for matzah because with a lot of people present there otherwise wouldn't be enough to go around. Everyone is supposed to eat at least some of the 3 seder matzahs at each point (motzi, korech, afikomen.)

I'm with you that it would have been socially appropriate to either make kiddush together with the group OR wait until after the others made kiddush before making their own.

In my experience, as hosts gain more hosting experience they gradually become better and better at emceeing in a way that everyone knows what to do at all times. Meanwhile you can just shrug it off as a learning experience.


I've been making seders for 35 years (and have been to others' homes too on numerous occasions) and have never encountered this practice of BYOB and BYOM in my social circles. I totally get the reasoning behind it, just commenting that it might not be as universal as some people might think.
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WhatFor




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 27 2016, 4:10 am
Heard of the BYOW/BYOM thing. Seen a lot of people making their own kiddush. Never saw people doing it at their own pace. All seders I've seen has had a person leading and everyone follows along (and then people who make their own kiddush do so after the leader). I would also think that was very weird if people did that at my house.
So they just waited until everyone was at motzei matzah and you all ate together? Or did the rest of the seder go smoothly and you all did Maggid together?
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 27 2016, 4:16 am
Totally normal is our circles (DL Israeli/Anglo circles).

Seder plate: It is helpful to have a seder plate near to each family so all can see pesach, matzah, moror.

Matzah: Can be expensive, so it is common practice in our circles to bring one's own or to contribute to the resources used at the table. Also, some people prefer different types of matzot (hand-made shmura vs machine made, different hecshers, soft Yemenite matzot vs more crunchy cracker-like ones).

Wine: Like matzah, wine can be expensive, so it is common practice in our circles to bring one's own or to contribute to the resources used at the table. Also, many people have wines they particularly enjoy, and since they are going to be drinking 4 cups of it, they might want something they like.

Kiddush: It is common in my circles for hosts to ask guests (for any shabbat/yom tov, not just seder night) if each family wants to make its own kiddush. I think starting before the host family does is s bit rude, though.

Afikomen: Same as seder plate explanation. Plus, if they have kids, they might want to bribe their own children to cough it up.
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water_bear88




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 27 2016, 12:59 pm
Some good points above. One idea on being DLKZ about the BYOW but not enough- maybe they were remembering how much wine they'd gone through another year but with smaller glasses than you were using? Some people use glasses that are the minimum size for a revi'it, some get larger ones for various reasons.

Going at their own pace through the haggada is unusual, but one of my cousins mentioned that his in-laws seder is like that. BH with many married kids and everybody putting little kids to bed at different times, and some who like to sit up and don't mind if they finish the afikoman after chatzot but others who just want to crawl into bed already... There's a certain critical mass of people at which point it can be more practical to have simultaneous seders rather than everyone doing everything together. The fun of being together is still there for the kids, at least, who have with whom to play if they're not sitting still at the table. (And with sleepover guests, the adults can catch up at lunch.)
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PassionFruit




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 27 2016, 1:06 pm
As for bringing their own wine and matza--where I was from in Israel, that was standard, because those things are expensive to provide for everyone. It could be that they thought their one bottle would be enough for the four cups, and didn't realize they would need more.

As for making their own kiddish and motzi--that is the costom of chassidishly influenced people, so even if they are not chassidish, if they became BT through chabbad or something, that could explain it.

As for not waiting for the group--I hear why you might think that was rude. I do it at my parents seder. Sometimes they are going very slow and I am hungry or tired and want to go a bit quicker towards the end. The seder is a hard time for function physically, and though it might not be the best manners, you can understand why someone would do that.
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amother
Jade


 

Post Wed, Apr 27 2016, 2:43 pm
OP here.

Thanks, everyone, for your responses. I really didn't know that this was standard practice in many circles. And yes, I would say that both are "chassidishly influenced" BT, one family though Chabad.

Now I have learned something new! And the not waiting for the group to do it together, well, I'll just attribute that to the fact that we all do things at some point that we later realize we should have done differently. All taken together, it really offended me at the time, but knowing now about the practice of BYOW and BYOM, it's easier to be DLZ the rest.

(But the running into my kitchen to double check that I'd read the "Non-gebockts" label correctly, that I'll have to work harder on looking past. Gee whiz, if you trust my kashrut enough to eat in my kitchen on Pesach, well, don't make a scene and tell your family not to eat until you run and check the label. I mean, really!! I was really embarrassed by that. I took a lot of care to make the meal non gebrochts!)
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 27 2016, 3:19 pm
amother wrote:
(But the running into my kitchen to double check that I'd read the "Non-gebockts" label correctly, that I'll have to work harder on looking past. Gee whiz, if you trust my kashrut enough to eat in my kitchen on Pesach, well, don't make a scene and tell your family not to eat until you run and check the label. I mean, really!! I was really embarrassed by that. I took a lot of care to make the meal non gebrochts!)

I agree they could have handled that issue way more tactfully.
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Marion




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 01 2016, 11:03 am
I grew up with each "head of household" had their own seder plate, matzot, etc. Made serving karpas, maror, korech much faster, and also there was more than one afikoman to go around between all the kids. (No rule that you MUST find your own father's afikoman.)
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 02 2016, 12:02 pm
I've never seen bringing most ofthose if at all.
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