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How do you justify Pesach programs AND tuition assistance???
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amother
Goldenrod


 

Post Thu, May 05 2016, 10:13 pm
People are always looking at what others have. You have to just look at yourself and do the right thing for yourself and your family. People would be much happier if they would look and focus on their own plate.
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Kfar




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, May 05 2016, 10:44 pm
This is about fairness as well as basic math. The IRS counts gifts in income and so should the Yeshivas to avoid giving an unfair advantage to those who would scam the system and to avoid going bankrupt.

And, in fact, everyone in my neighborhood knows lots of these shameless people IRL (and if you are honest in yours too).

For example, in my neighborhood not so long ago husbands were on the bus in the morning bragging about their tuition discounts b/c Madoff lost them $$ and their stay-at-home wives were crying poverty every Shabbat in Shul in fur coats while packing for Pesach at the Fountainbleu.

This is also not about my looking at someone else's "plate" -- it's about others taking things off mine. If their pesach vacation "arrangement" is costing me a certain % more each year in already astronomical tuition to subsidize their "lifestyle" at my children's expense, how is that not my business?

Thank G-d we could, with some sacrifice and working hard at two jobs, afford to pay full tuition plus camp, but please don't take us for complete suckers or mistake us for Boxer in Animal Farm. Yes, I'm going to complain when you are essentially stealing from me and other hard working honest people who believe everyone should pay their own way to the extent possible, including the hard working families who truly do need the scholarship help.

In sum, I think that in English those playing this "game" generally would be described as having no scruples. In Yiddish, I believe the word is schnorrers. And you know who you are.


Last edited by Kfar on Thu, May 05 2016, 11:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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amother
Cyan


 

Post Thu, May 05 2016, 11:06 pm
aleph wrote:
By definition this argument cannot be resolved. There are too many factors. Op, your argument only works in a zero sum game but life is never that (in other words, a situation in which losses and gains are absolute, such as, if the in laws don't spend $10,000 on vacation then the school will get $10,000 more, but in reality, the school will not get anything extra even if the children turn down the vacation offer).

I remember years ago a friend of mine was trying to raise money for her son's tuition which was even higher than usual due to his special needs. She couldn't cover it. She didn't believe in credit cards, and carried no debt. We on the other hand, were carrying substantial debt, because at the end of the month, when we couldn't cover the tuition, guess what? It got charged on our card.

Is that a wise policy? Probably not, but I have other friends and family members who are forced to do the same, and that's how we managed. So no, I didn't agree that I needed to donate tzedaka to her and her husband's debtless existence.

But was she wrong to say she needed help? I don't know.... Not really.... It's awfully complex and like I said, oftentimes are too many factors to consider.

And like others said, you cannot expect absolute fairness in life. There is a truly destitute family that I am involved with, and the mother is often wearing uggs and designer outfits. Why? Because there is a wealthy woman who helps her out by giving her last year's "outdated" clothing. Ironically this mother is totally clueless about designer clothing and has no idea what she is wearing. All she cares about is that she has a warm coat.... Life is complex and usually we know a small percentage of anyone's true story.


Aleph, I disagree on your first paragraph, I think that if school policy was that someone's in-laws could not take them to a pesach hotel if they are not paying X amount of tuition then the in-laws who so desperately want all of their children together for pesach in the hotel would likely find the money to contribute to tuition. This is not a small vacation, a pesach hotel is a fortune, either the non-tuition payers should turn down the offer or the parents/grandparents should contribute to tuition. It is sad that some people would miss out on vacations (especially the poster that hasn't seen her parents in years) but it is also sad that people are paying every dime they have for those "less fortunate" that are actually in reality fortunate enough to go to a pesach hotel, drive fancy cars, wear designer clothes, etc. To the poster that hasn't seen her parents, maybe instead her parents would visit her, I don't have an answer for that...
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amother
Babypink


 

Post Thu, May 05 2016, 11:22 pm
http://I.imgur.com/0A7TNdV.jpg

Smile
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amother
Cyan


 

Post Thu, May 05 2016, 11:50 pm
amother wrote:
I didn't read the whole thread but I'd just like to share a personal situation. DH and I work extremely hard and full-time to make ends meet. (or rather not make them meet)
The struggle is endless...........
We don't qualify for any government assistance because we "make too much". Our jobs are with respectable companies, where there is no schtick of getting paid off the books in order to qualify for programs.

We get tuition assistance because after paying all the bills, rent, food, and babysitting since we are not home early enough after work, there is nothing left. I commute aprox. 3 hrs daily.

Now, I haven't seen my parents in about 8 years because they live overseas. This summer they want to buy us tickets so that we can go see them and so that the children can meet and get to know their grandparents and extended family. My youngest kids don't remember them at all since last time they were infants.
Do you think I will accept the offer? You bet!!!!! But to some it may appear like I am going on a lavish European vacation. We will have to be in Hotels because the family doesn't have enough space for us..........

So you get the idea....


Just wanted to say, ENJOY, even though I am taking the other "side" on this thread, hearing your story I would say it's fine and totally different then going to a pesach hotel yearly.
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amother
Papaya


 

Post Fri, May 06 2016, 12:04 am
Kfar wrote:
This is about fairness as well as basic math. The IRS counts gifts in income and so should the Yeshivas to avoid giving an unfair advantage to those who would scam the system and to avoid going bankrupt.

And, in fact, everyone in my neighborhood knows lots of these shameless people IRL (and if you are honest in yours too).

For example, in my neighborhood not so long ago husbands were on the bus in the morning bragging about their tuition discounts b/c Madoff lost them $$ and their stay-at-home wives were crying poverty every Shabbat in Shul in fur coats while packing for Pesach at the Fountainbleu.

This is also not about my looking at someone else's "plate" -- it's about others taking things off mine. If their pesach vacation "arrangement" is costing me a certain % more each year in already astronomical tuition to subsidize their "lifestyle" at my children's expense, how is that not my business?

Thank G-d we could, with some sacrifice and working hard at two jobs, afford to pay full tuition plus camp, but please don't take us for complete suckers or mistake us for Boxer in Animal Farm. Yes, I'm going to complain when you are essentially stealing from me and other hard working honest people who believe everyone should pay their own way to the extent possible, including the hard working families who truly do need the scholarship help.

In sum, I think that in English those playing this "game" generally would be described as having no scruples. In Yiddish, I believe the word is schnorrers. And you know who you are.


Totally hit the nail on the head, I'm seeing lots of defensive posts such as what about the family with the special needs child, etc-the OP wasn't talking about you. Clearly lots of us encounter the entitled people OP is describing, the ones who don't stop taking even at the expense of other Jews which now makes it my business. A yeshiva can only give out so much in breaks per year and according to what I make on paper I don't qualify-but why isn't the free house, clothing and other parental help and gifts that others receive listed on those same papers and taken into account when deciding these things? Then I'd definitely be entitled to a tuition break too!

And to PP-add me to the minority but if it's in my house then I either bought it or I stole it, there are many that don't receive freebies, handouts or any other such break. We work, which means we're now not entitled to them.
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Sadie




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, May 06 2016, 6:27 am
I have no skin in this game, but doesn't the IRS only require you to report gifts of over 10,000? And if your parents bought you a house wouldn't the tuition commission see that you have no mortgage and take that into account?
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sima




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, May 06 2016, 11:25 am
Wow, if your parents bought you a house and you don't have a mortgage, then you are really really lucky. Basically, you have one huge concern lifted off your shoulders. Namely, you don't need to worry about having a roof over your head. And then you should be working and paying tuition since a huge expense has been taken care of for you!!!!
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mommy3b2c




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, May 06 2016, 11:52 am
I'm sorry, but many of you sound bitter and jealous. Nobody is taking anything away from you. Keep your nose in your own wallet and stop complaining. Life isn't fair. It never has been and it never will be.
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amother
Firebrick


 

Post Fri, May 06 2016, 11:56 am
Everyone this whole post is so hypothetical. Can anyone on imamother even anonymously say that their parents bought them a house in cash and they get a tuition discount. The whole thing is made up.

Parents that are so wealthy that they paid in cash the whole house with no mortgage would be embarrassed for their kids to have tuition discounts plus yeshivas aren't stupid and they would ask you to go to grandparents the same way bonei Olam doesn't give money to wealthy children because they say their funds are limited and you have parents to help.

Yeshivos are not stupid they would not let this happen. So people stop worrying that you are paying for someone else to just live off everyone for free.

It's sad that some people even believe yeshivas are stupid and give discounts so freely. How many post did we have on here people saying they are destitute and must force their kids into public school because yeshivos don't care but here we are saying they give to wealthy kids.
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Tova




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 05 2016, 12:30 pm
No income tax on gifts in the US.
Gift tax is a tax on the DONOR not the recipient, and you only have to file a gift tax return if over the annual exemption is given (and even then you can have it eat away from your estate tax deduction which is a lifetime accumulation).
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amother
Amber


 

Post Sun, Jun 05 2016, 12:46 pm
amother wrote:
Everyone this whole post is so hypothetical. Can anyone on imamother even anonymously say that their parents bought them a house in cash and they get a tuition discount. The whole thing is made up.



My friend purchased her house with a check for the full amount from her inlaws. Her husband was in kollel then and she had a part time job. She used to have a side job in the summer to pay for the taxes. Her husband now has a job in chinuch. She most definitely didnt and currently doesn't pay full tuition. She kept her kids home one summer when she didn't have money for daycamp.

She doesn't have a mortgage, but their income is low that they have to be creative to streach it to provide for her ever growing family.
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amother
Firebrick


 

Post Sun, Jun 05 2016, 1:01 pm
So your friend got a one time gift of a house but otherwise she lives very simply. You can't fagin her the house.

And people in chinuch tuition is cheaper for them it's not a discount that's the price for people in chinuch. She didn't go lying and begging for a discount she said her husband is in chinuch which he is.

You said herself she keeps her kids home in the summer to save money.
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amother
White


 

Post Sun, Jun 05 2016, 1:22 pm
amother wrote:
My friend purchased her house with a check for the full amount from her inlaws. Her husband was in kollel then and she had a part time job. She used to have a side job in the summer to pay for the taxes. Her husband now has a job in chinuch. She most definitely didnt and currently doesn't pay full tuition. She kept her kids home one summer when she didn't have money for daycamp.

She doesn't have a mortgage, but their income is low that they have to be creative to streach it to provide for her ever growing family.


This is the exception, not the rule. The above poster is correct. It's very unusual for grandparents to be so wealthy that they can buy a house outright for their children yet are ok with those children going to the school board for assistance. For many wealthy grandparents this would be embarrassing.
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 05 2016, 3:09 pm
We circle this topic in an endless loop of scenarios, accusations, and justifications.

The answer is actually pretty simple: leadership.

The fact is that we look up to and honor financially successful people in our communities. Not exactly the greatest idea, of course, but recall that we traded in our temptation for avodah zora for the temptation of worshipping money.

Even moderately well-to-do people in our generation have been given an unprecedented opportunity to show leadership in how money should be spent, but many have declined to lead. And if we decline to take leadership roles, it's hardly fair to kvetch about the results.

Leadership in this case does not mean pretending to be poor, living an austere lifestyle, or even denying yourself a favorite indulgence. It means honestly acknowledging that others will look at your behavior and see it as an appropriate model -- and thinking about the consequences.

For most of us, it's really pretty easy:

Quote:
"I agree those shoes are darling and perfect for school. But you know, honey, they're really, really expensive, and it might make other kids feel bad if they can't afford such expensive shoes."


Quote:
"Yeah, I'd love to go on one of those Pesach programs this year, and my MIL offered to pay, but what with the schools struggling to make payroll this month, it just wouldn't look right."


Quote:
"That sounds like a great camp, but we don't send the kids to camp once they reach 16 unless they have jobs there. So Shloimie is going to be working in his father's office over the summer break this year."


Usually when I point out the responsibility of leadership, people are quick to point out that the Torah doesn't require you to live in poverty and that well-to-do people earned this money, etc.

True, and true. But we're not talking about rights; we're talking about leadership. Being a leader, whether willingly or not, involves at least some sacrifice for the greater good.

This kind of leadership is actually pretty common in small-town America. It's no secret in small communities that the bank president makes a lot more money than most people; has a somewhat nicer house; and takes his family on a slightly nicer annual vacation than is typical. But the bank president, in turn, doesn't drive a foreign luxury sportscar; buys his suits more-or-less locally; and the family doesn't jet off to Florida every time school is let out for more than two days in the winter.

If you're seriously wealthy, the job is harder, and you probably need the advice of financially disinterested daas Torah on an almost daily basis. The amounts of money and potential impact of your actions are so great that they require more reflection than that needed to decide your cut-off price for a pair of school shoes.

Does anyone seriously believe that even the wealthiest people in our community would be forced to burn their excess money if they declined to spend it publicly? Feel that giving more tzeddekah would harm your community's self-reliance? Then invest it in Jewish-owned businesses -- or businesses that will employ Jews. Set up scholarships for vocational training. Sponsor money management classes for young couples and retirement planning for middle-aged couples. Heck, give money to the Cincinnati zoo to buy another gorilla!

What's amazing to me is how few people actually have to act like leaders to make a change. In my own community, we are very slowly but inexorably moving toward smaller-scaled chassunahs. It has taken, quite literally, two or three kallahs from families known to have money to turn former "nebuch" venues into possibilities that are considered acceptable and smart.

Wealth is a tremendous nisoyon, and there's no doubt that it's tough to show leadership when you're surrounded by a consumerist society that tells you constantly that you owe it to yourself to spend just a little more than you really need to or should. It's tough to draw a line between "living well" and "living large." It's tough to teach your kids than you can afford something better and nicer but choose not to.

But we can't spend lavishly and then act surprised that others with fewer resources attempt to emulate us and lose their moral footing in doing so.
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amother
Firebrick


 

Post Sun, Jun 05 2016, 3:10 pm
Whoever this girl is the poster doesn't say what the price of the house is. Also it could be that it was the yerusha it doesn't mean that grandparents are wealthy if they give a one time generous gift.

Otherwise this person lives a very simple lifestyle.
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amother
Coral


 

Post Sun, Jun 05 2016, 3:16 pm
amother wrote:
This is the exception, not the rule. The above poster is correct. It's very unusual for grandparents to be so wealthy that they can buy a house outright for their children yet are ok with those children going to the school board for assistance. For many wealthy grandparents this would be embarrassing.


My in laws bought my house as well (without a mortgage) and I get a tuition discount.

My in laws have no clue how much my tuition is and whether or not I get a discount and it wouldn't even dawn on then to ask. It's not their concern.

Either way they wouldn't contribute because they're not happy with my choice of schools.
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amother
Firebrick


 

Post Sun, Jun 05 2016, 4:10 pm
Coral amother do you live lavishly besides mortgage free?
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amother
Coral


 

Post Sun, Jun 05 2016, 4:35 pm
amother wrote:
Coral amother do you live lavishly besides mortgage free?


I have what I need bh but I definitely don't live lavishly. I'm not a big spender and I have no debt bh.

I told the schools straight out I can commit to X amount of money as per my budget and pay it on time. If I am charged full tuition there is no guarantee that I will be able to pay it.

They were fine with charging me what I said I can commit to. That said I do prioritize tuition and if I am able to pay in advance I do. I get a tax return check and as soon as I get it I pay tuition ahead.
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amother
Floralwhite


 

Post Sun, Jun 05 2016, 8:17 pm
Fox wrote:



Does anyone seriously believe that even theIn my own community, we are very slowly but inexorably moving toward smaller-scaled chassunahs. It has taken, quite literally, two or three kallahs from families known to have money to turn former "nebuch" venues into possibilities that are considered acceptable and smart.


I know of a very well to do family in Lakewood that chose to make their daughter's wedding in the cheapest hall in town, I don't know the reason. Parents of classmates of the girl called to thank the parents (some emotionally) for making it possible for them to make a more reasonably priced wedding.
It helped in a single class, but it isn't bringing change to a community.
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