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Forum -> Household Management -> Kosher Kitchen
S/o of different kashrus standards



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amother
Linen


 

Post Tue, May 31 2016, 3:24 pm
A lady in our community inquired about our kashrus and it went something like this:

Lady: how do you kasher your oven?
Me: I use it for meat only.
Lady: what do you do for pareve?
Me: I don't do pareve...only meat keylim. But it's self cleaning so once in a blue moon (maybe for shavous or a simcha) I will use self clean and make milchigs in it and self clean it back.
Lady: you can't do that. It's basic halacha.
Me: are you sure? I will have to check into that. Hmmm.

So I have a hard time believing that one can't self clean an oven occasionally. Especially since their are perfectly Frum righteous people who use the same oven for meat and dairy without a full self clean cycle in between. So what could be the problem?
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BinahYeteirah




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 31 2016, 4:04 pm
I learned that you shouldn't use items (kelim, appliances, etc.) for one type of food, kasher the items, then use them for the other. The reason, as I learned, is that it can cause mix-ups.

I guess if you aren't particular about having separate ovens, then just don't have separate ovens. You can use the same one for all types of food, taking any necessary precautions every single time. If you are particular, kashering back and forth could cause someone to use the oven for the wrong type before it has been kashered back, then you have potential issues with kelim, etc.
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Faigy86




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 31 2016, 4:16 pm
Just because she said she doesn't think you can do it, doesn't mean that you can't...

I was raised in a home with a fleishig oven, a parve oven, and a milchig convection oven. Surprise! When I got married, I had one oven, plus a dinky toaster oven. I had no idea how that was supposed to work and I needed to learn.

Sometimes necessity means that you need to learn halacha properly instead of just being lazy. I only have one sink, and I needed to learn how to wash dishes, drain food, in one sink, instead of being lazy and having two.

Just because someone isn't familiar with something doesn't mean there is a legitimate halachic opinion that you are just fine.
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amother
Cyan


 

Post Tue, May 31 2016, 4:17 pm
We use the same oven for both and even, glass dishes for both meat and dairy. That is basic halacha.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 31 2016, 4:22 pm
I learned that you shouldn't ask another lady to pasken Halacha for you. Ask your LOR.
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questioner




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 31 2016, 4:23 pm
BinahYeteirah wrote:
I learned that you shouldn't use items (kelim, appliances, etc.) for one type of food, kasher the items, then use them for the other. The reason, as I learned, is that it can cause mix-ups.

I guess if you aren't particular about having separate ovens, then just don't have separate ovens. You can use the same one for all types of food, taking any necessary precautions every single time. If you are particular, kashering back and forth could cause someone to use the oven for the wrong type before it has been kashered back, then you have potential issues with kelim, etc.


An oven is different than a pot, because food doesn't get cooked directly on the oven, so there are many kulos involved.
I haven't heard any opinion that one can't kasher an oven between milchig/ fleishig / parve, though I have heard several opinions on how such kashering is done (or whether it is required at all). This is different than other keilim, which we do not just use for fleishig, kasher and then use for milchig.
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sky




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 31 2016, 4:31 pm
In America most people do kasher their oven (although there are some opinions not to).
In Israel many people do NOT kasher their oven.
I don't fully understand the reasoning, it depends on how the oven is viewed.
It is not so black and white.
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tweety1




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 31 2016, 4:34 pm
Chayalle wrote:
I learned that you shouldn't ask another lady to pasken Halacha for you. Ask your LOR.

This!
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Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 31 2016, 4:59 pm
Chayalle wrote:
I learned that you shouldn't ask another lady to pasken Halacha for you. Ask your LOR.


Women can learn halacha too. And lots of men are ignorant.

Am I the only person who has chicken juice spilling all over her oven? Do people who use their ovens for both have really clean ovens?
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questioner




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 31 2016, 5:05 pm
sky wrote:
In America most people do kasher their oven (although there are some opinions not to).
In Israel many people do NOT kasher their oven.
I don't fully understand the reasoning, it depends on how the oven is viewed.
It is not so black and white.


I was referring to American poskim above for the most part.

Do they not hold that an oven can be kashered, or do they require libun gamur (blowtorching) in order to kasher, which means kashering is impractical?
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mummiedearest




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 31 2016, 6:02 pm
Raisin wrote:
Women can learn halacha too. And lots of men are ignorant.

Am I the only person who has chicken juice spilling all over her oven? Do people who use their ovens for both have really clean ovens?


I hold that you can use an oven for meat or dairy with no kashering in between IF there have been no spills and the oven has been cold for a couple hours. once there's a spill, I clean it and burn it out. no big deal.
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tichellady




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 31 2016, 6:37 pm
There are lots of opinions- there is even an opinion than our modern ovens ventilate enough that you can cook meat and milk at the same time. I have also heard that liquids and solids and covered food vs uncovered food make a difference. I have never heard the argument about Kashering an oven in between for ovens- only for dishwashers and I think it's just one opinion.
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amother
Linen


 

Post Tue, May 31 2016, 8:27 pm
I'm certainly not asking anyone here to pasken halacha. When I read the other thread it reminded me of this conversation so I just wanted to discuss it.

It is a valid point that we wouldn't want to have a mix up that meat was put in a dairy oven because the family is use to it being fleshing and weren't aware it was being used for milchigs temporarily. This is why I personally don't use the same oven for meat and dairy on a regular basis. When I do switch it over I put a sign on it to let the family know it's temporarily dairy. The same way I put a sign up once it's already been kashered for Pesach.
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abaker




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 31 2016, 8:33 pm
questioner wrote:
I was referring to American poskim above for the most part.

Do they not hold that an oven can be kashered, or do they require libun gamur (blowtorching) in order to kasher, which means kashering is impractical?


Good question "questioner" and might I add that you have the perfect username for this question? I think with newer ovens particularly self cleaning it is quite easy to kasher the oven so maybe that has something to do with it. I just looked this up and here's what the CRC says about how to kasher an oven...
"Non self-cleaning oven
The interior and exterior surfaces of the oven and the racks inside the oven, must be thoroughly cleaned. Then the oven should not be used for a full 24 hours, after which the oven (with the racks inside) should be turned on to its highest temperature for one hour.
Self-cleaning oven
A complete self-clean cycle should be run with the racks inside the oven, and then the oven may be used without covering the racks. This kashering may be done even if the oven was not left unused for 24 hours. If the racks are not inside the oven while the self-clean cycle is run, the racks should be kashered separately."
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bluebird




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 31 2016, 8:35 pm
Are you asking about the halacha of what you're doing, or is this an example for wanting to know how to handle differences in opinion/practice with other people?
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amother
Linen


 

Post Tue, May 31 2016, 8:39 pm
bluebird wrote:
Are you asking about the halacha of what you're doing, or is this an example for wanting to know how to handle differences in opinion/practice with other people?


Just generally discussing it. Really no motive beyond that.
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mille




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 01 2016, 10:10 am
Raisin wrote:
Women can learn halacha too. And lots of men are ignorant.

Am I the only person who has chicken juice spilling all over her oven? Do people who use their ovens for both have really clean ovens?


If chicken juice spills in my oven, I clean it. Otherwise it's gonna smoke up. But no, I really don't have spills very often in my oven. I can only think of one time since I was married that something spilled in my oven.
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questioner




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 01 2016, 11:03 am
abaker wrote:
Good question "questioner" and might I add that you have the perfect username for this question? I think with newer ovens particularly self cleaning it is quite easy to kasher the oven so maybe that has something to do with it. I just looked this up and here's what the CRC says about how to kasher an oven...
"Non self-cleaning oven
The interior and exterior surfaces of the oven and the racks inside the oven, must be thoroughly cleaned. Then the oven should not be used for a full 24 hours, after which the oven (with the racks inside) should be turned on to its highest temperature for one hour.
Self-cleaning oven
A complete self-clean cycle should be run with the racks inside the oven, and then the oven may be used without covering the racks. This kashering may be done even if the oven was not left unused for 24 hours. If the racks are not inside the oven while the self-clean cycle is run, the racks should be kashered separately."


Thanks. My question was really for sky. I know of different shittos on how to kasher ovens, but it was mentioned above that Israeli poskim don't hold of kashering ovens.

I'm curious if this is because they hold that an oven is the same as other keilim, with no kulos to switch back and forth. Or do they hold that theoretically an oven can be kashered, but it requires a blowtorch, so for practical purposes it isn't done.
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Iymnok




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 01 2016, 11:39 am
My mother always waited 24 hours between using the oven for the other. DH said that there are American poskim who let this.
Different Kilimanjaro of course. Any material.

I have separate ovens.
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sky




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 01 2016, 12:05 pm
I know of one women in America who doesn't switch her oven. She cooked fleishigs for her double digit family on her stovetop. Knowing her I'm sure she was following an opinion, but I don't know whose.

In Israel vs America: I believe it has something to do with how you view an oven. LIke a small oven you cannot switch, but a large oven you can. Could be in America they consider ovens big and Israel small. But I really don't remember exactly.

What I personally do - I've grown up with 2 different community standards:

In my parent's community as long as food was dry and didn't give off steam the oven was fine to use for the other type. No waiting needed. If it gave off steam need to wait 24 hours.

In my community and my DH's rav I need to wait 24 hours whether it gave off steam or NOT.

If you don't want to wait 24 hours you can broil oven for 45 minutes.

This is assuming oven is cleaned (really burnt on items that are really unrecognizable don't count). If it is not clean it has to be cleaned well beforehand or self cleaned.
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