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Nomad

Wed, Jun 06 2007, 6:50 pm

oy - I think people are taking what faigie is saying way off the mark.

mordechai and esther had to be open minded to what was happening in their situation...
thats the whole thing about purim - it was a hidden nais - they did not know what would happen and had to remain open minded.

if you have a problem with the details in faigie's posts - take the gist - it is actually really interesting!

TzenaRena

Wed, Jun 06 2007, 7:11 pm

faigie wrote:

her reply to mordechai is quite normal and ordinary. its right in the p'shat. shes scared for her life.

When Esther replied to Mordechai: "I have not been summoned to come to the king now for thirty days", her kavannah was not to protect her own life.

It was to protect the Jewish people, because she wanted a) to come to the king when it was a more propitious or opportune time to speak the king WITHOUT endangering her life, if certain death would result from her unscheduled visit, her hope of being able to help the Jewish people was very questionable.. from MeAm Loez, citing the Alshich.
b) She wanted to bring the Jews to repent, which would bring their salvation, and rectify those actions for which they were being punished.

MeAm Loez wrote:

"I am certain", she said, " that the king will summon me soon. It's been thirty days since he called for me, and he should do so any day now. Why should I take the initiative and endanger my life. There is still plenty of time."

Another explanation:
Her kavannah was that "if we wait, the Jews will repent, and then G-d can let me save them without endangering my life. Better for me to wait until the king summons me. " she felt if the Jews will suffer, it will be an atonement for having enjoyed Achashverosh's feast. (Kissey Shlomo - cited by Meam Loez)

Mordechai rejected her opinion.

"Who knows what will be, a year from now? Who knows if you will still be queen? For the sin of neglecting your people you might well lose your position.

"You speak of getting the Jews to repent by delaying. You say that if they discover that they have a sister in the palace they will remain as stiff necked and sinful as ever. Fine! Go in to the king without publicity. Let the Jews not find out about it, and let them repent. But you do what you must. (Maamar Mordechai, Yosef Lekach, Imrei Shefer)

Esther sent back a conciliatory message to Mordechai in order to pacify him. She said "Do not think that I am demurring because I am afraid of personal danger. If there is a chance that I can save my people, my life means absolutely nothing. But I want to wait for a propitious time to explain to the king how he has been deceived by Haman..." (Manoth HaLevi)

Lechatchila Ariber

Wed, Jun 06 2007, 7:24 pm

Nomad wrote:

yes changing history can be interesting
mordechai and Esther were tzadikim. end of story
Esther did what was right and according to some meforshim at great mesiras nefesh to herself and mordechai as there are those that say they were married and once she went to achashverosh willingly (for the sake of the yidden) she could never see mordechai again.

shalhevet

Thu, Jun 07 2007, 3:49 am

I didn't read all this last exchange about Purim until now and I read the last posts first, so I expected to go back and find wild apikorsus ideas in feige's posts. Really ladies, what on earth did she say that was wrong? Esti - you have added your own peirushim to what faigie said (in the post where you cut and pasted lots of her posts) and then used your interpretations to attack her. Confused

If you remember from some other threads, the vast majority of the Torah world believes that everyone has free choice, that tzaddikim also had points in their lives where they had to make decisions and that yes, we can also learn from them to make the right choices according to Torah and reach their level, in theory at least.

bashinda

Thu, Jun 07 2007, 10:32 am

My suggestion? We try to accept that we have different hashkafos here which reflect on how we view our tzaddikim and let it be. Some of us think there's no way they can err, they're on a completely different level than us and some people think they can. Is it possible to accept that we think differently and move on and keep that sensitivity for the future posts we write?

songbliss

Thu, Jun 07 2007, 10:57 am

define close minded!

personally I think the defenition of close minded is that you have a certain belief. you will never change you're mind. AND you expect everyone else to believe the same way as you. I think if you'll check it up in the dictionary, that is what you'll find it means...

open minded means: you have you're own beliefs and ways of doing things, but if other people want to do so differently you do not EXPECT them to be the same as you and do exactly what you do....

Theres a VERY fine line... and you're supposed to be in between as a frum jew. You can't just watch a non-frum jew eat treif and do nothing... BUT you can suggest something in THEIR way (al pi darco!) that will have a positive effect...

this way you are being open to the fact that yes, they do eat treif, and no they can't just change to be exactly like you overnight... but you are being close-minded to the fact that treif is treif and you cant eat it no matter what.

does this make sense? I hope u get what I mean Very Happy

gryp

Thu, Jun 07 2007, 11:35 am

Quote:

faige seems we learnt differently

I think this sums it up nicely.

Motek

Thu, Jun 07 2007, 3:50 pm

shalhevet wrote:

what on earth did she say that was wrong?

how about:

faigie wrote:

in regard to mordechai having ruach hakodesh, that can be easily disputed.

really? go ahead, dispute it

Mordechai was a member of the Anshei Knesses Ha'Gedola who wrote our Siddur with Ruach Ha'Kodesh

Quote:

we need to recognize that our heros were people who rose to the occasion, not some outworldly tzadikim that we could never ever hope to come to such a madraygah.

Some were born as tzaddikim, as others became so later. Moshe, for example, was born that way - the house filled with light.

Quote:

they thought out of the box, and took a chance. they were anything but closed minded.

Are you including halacha here?

Quote:

as far as going to the king to begin with, I can tell you that jewish women have killed themselves over such a situation.....and had every right to.

Right.
And the only reason Esther went is because Mordechai had ruach ha'kodesh and told her to go.

I find these and the other comments posted by faige disturbing because our Torah sources say that both Esther and Mordechai had ruach ha'kodesh and her version of the story discounts this important point.

I think this can be discussed without personal attacks.

shalhevet

Thu, Jun 07 2007, 3:58 pm

Quote:

[quote="Motek"]

shalhevet wrote:

what on earth did she say that was wrong?

how about

faigie wrote:

in regard to mordechai having ruach hakodesh, that can be easily disputed.

really? go ahead, dispute it

Mordechai was a member of the Anshei Knesses Ha'Gedola who wrote our Siddur with Ruach Ha'Kodesh in clear, smoothly flowing
and readable final form

OK Motek, for sure I agree with you here. I didn't notice that remark

Quote:

we need to recognize that our heros were people who rose to the occasion, not some outworldly tzadikim that we could never ever hope to come to such a madraygah.

Some were born as tzaddikim, as others became so later. Moshe, for example, was born that way - the house filled with light.

We've already established on other threads that only Chabad holds like this.

Quote:

they thought out of the box, and took a chance. they were anything but closed minded.

Are you including halacha here?

And where did she say she didn't?

Quote:

as far as going to the king to begin with, I can tell you that jewish women have killed themselves over such a situation.....and had every right to.

Right.
And the only reason Esther went is because Mordechai had ruach ha'kodesh and told her to go.

And she had emunas chachamim to listen.

Motek

Thu, Jun 07 2007, 4:27 pm

shalhevet wrote:

We've already established on other threads that only Chabad holds like this.

So your explanation about Moshe Rabeinu and Rashi's explanation is?

I didn't read the other thread but I don't accept what you've established. Shimshon is another example (nazir mi'beten). The concept of kadosh mi'beten precedes Chassidus. See Yirmiyah 1:5 ("Before I formed you in the belly I knew you, and before you came forth out of the womb I sanctified you")

Quote:

And where did she say she didn't?

I asked her to clarify her statement. If she was including halacha, fine.

Lechatchila Ariber

Thu, Jun 07 2007, 7:47 pm

thanks amother and bashinda and motek and GR and if I skipped anyone them too.

and since you observed shalhevet that you didn't notice all the comments that faigy made, perhaps you would like to revise the thread again

Motek

Thu, Jun 07 2007, 7:53 pm

and shalhevet - what about this:

faigie wrote:

yes ester was just a regular jewish girl. maybe someone like you and me. who knows.

The Gemara in Megilla 141 says that Esther was one of the 7 prophetesses (the others:Sarah, Miriam, Devorah, Chana, Avigail, Chulda).

I think the comments posted about Esther, bringing her "down to size" are in contradiction to our Torah sources.

faigie

Thu, Jun 07 2007, 8:45 pm

when all was said and done, yes she developed into a tzadayket.........the fast alone was a fast utilizing the 72 shamot........etc etc etc no one is disputing that fact.
whats your point?

gryp

Thu, Jun 07 2007, 9:08 pm

Quote:

I think the comments posted about Esther, bringing her "down to size" are in contradiction to our Torah sources.

I don't know why but I get the feeling that it's a feminist version of the story. Confused

Lechatchila Ariber

Sun, Jun 10 2007, 7:51 pm

was PINCHAS mentioned in this thread?

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