DD tells me I'm not tznius

amother

Pewter

Wed, Jul 06 2016, 9:32 am

debsey wrote:

I have teenage sons, so I probably am more on top of this than most are. But I know my girls were taught this in school.

Lakewood is hardly a unified community! There are all sorts of standards here. There's a reason Brenda's is opening a branch in Jackson. Plenty of people in Lakewood who don't identify as yeshivish at all. You won't see a girl who attends a school like Bnos Melech or Bais Rivka Rochel or the like wearing bobby socks past age 4. Those are the more RW yeshivish type schools.

I have teenage sons and older. They don't get to control how their sisters dress in the house. The girls won't wear leggings or low v-neck tees out of their room because it is not fair to their brothers (I don't want to see it either). But the girls have every right to be in comfortable lounge wear when they are amongst immediate family. It is not fair that the girls have to be locked in their rooms to be comfortable. My sons never wear anything but their white shirts and slacks except when they go to sleep. I don't get it but that is their right (oldest DS most of the time wear his jacket too).

I feel very strongly that the laws of tznius are bound by what is taking place at the time. Different rules when you are private then when you are public. There is a time and place for everything. Some women and girls are already sleeping in their stockings, there is no end in sight how extreme it is getting. It is important to learn that one acts differently in a B'rshus HaRabbim vs B'rshus HaYochid. This is such an important part of tznius.

I am in my late 40's and we learned tznius very differently then the way it is being taught now and I see the new way is very negative for the girls. They are taught now they are causing men to sin, that men have no control. I have to work hard to undo this horrific damage that they now look at mens as boors. I tell my girls look at your father, grandfather and uncles they are decent erlich people they know how to conduct themselves.

I don't see it as healthy that a teenage girl is sleeping in a night gown with a neckline up to the chin, sleeves past the wrist and stockings. This is not tznius, this is a total of not understanding hilchos tznius.

Sorry for my rant but as a mother of a lot of girls this really gets to me. In my daughters high school this year there was a raffle. For every inch of hair you cut you get more tickets. I did not let my daughter participate in it even though she cut her hair (because she wanted to). High school girls don't need a reward system for being tznius they are mature enough to know you keep halacha because you must. I don't need some Ploni Almoni decide what chinuch the girls should get and run a reward system to indoctrinate my daughters with made up halachos which the school lets in. Ugh!

amother

Denim

Wed, Jul 06 2016, 9:59 am

OP here. sorry to have ruffled so many feathers. I didn't expect one page of replies. LOL

and here we are. thanks all.

to clarify, yes, I am chasidish. DD is in a school that has all types. not only chassidim. I don't think it's coming from the teacher, TBH. I think it's coming from some of the kids in school and on the block. yes, don't underestimate 4 year olds. oh, and so much for not putting myself in a school that's more RW or LW than we are. we chose this school so we wouldn't have to fit into a mold. so we would have some wiggle room. you ladies don't believe in sending to a school that's more than you are (in either direction) and I agree. that's why we made this choice and now this. it's fine. I can handle it. just wanted some perspective before I "make my move".

service rendered. Wink

I thank you!

amother

Denim

Wed, Jul 06 2016, 10:13 am

FTR, a big part of me stopping to we PJs is because I don't need DD telling her teacher/friends/neigbors/uncles/grandmothers that I was wearing PJs. it's not something I want known. as a teen I wore nightgowns. now I wear both or rather, I used to. I guess it's similar to all the lingerie threads. if you sleep in a skimpy nightie do you run to change in the morning before you kids see you?

DD is also still in socks and short sleeves and at random times she'll tell me she doesn't want to wear it. there is no school rule at this age not to wear socks... but probably a more RW girl said something to her. I've overheard a neigbors DD, younger than mine, asking her mother why my DD isn't tznius. you encounter more "frum" people everywhere. not just in school.

greenfire

Wed, Jul 06 2016, 1:16 pm

dancingqueen wrote:

I asked in the other thread but why the emphasis on teenage sons? Would they get turned on by their own sister or mothers hair feet or pajama pants? I don't understand this concern.

this has always been an off-putting thought to me as well ...

I've seen in many families where boys can run amok in pajamas - but girls must be dressed

I pray that nobody is turned on by family members - but who knows what thoughts are put into the heads of little boys that are told you cannot touch your own family members of the opposite zex after age 9 shock

amother

Beige

Wed, Jul 06 2016, 5:53 pm

amother wrote:

A thousand likes!

I actually mostly left the RW yeshivish world I was part of, and this was a major reason.

Instead of embracing my womanhood, I was bombarded by objectification from my teachers and leaders. Sometimes I literally felt like a piece of meat. And I was indirectly taught that my body was shameful and the cause of sin.

I was always so angry at the men- why were they so weak? Why did almost my entire identity have to revolve around and depend on their taivos?

I realize that there are others in the RW yeshivish world who have had different experiences and are very happy. But these are the messages I consistently received from when I was a little girl.

debsey

Thu, Jul 07 2016, 11:40 am

Why all the attacks? Someone posted that she doesn't think not wearing PJs out of the room is a yeshivishe thing, and I pointed out that it depends what you mean by "yeshivishe."

In terms of objectification, I firmly believe that by educating both my male and female children in the concept of human dignity, and that home is not a place where we "let it all hang out," I am teaching the very opposite of objectification. I am teaching that your body only has value inasmuch as you use it for the right things. I want my daughters and my sons to be valued and cherished for their personalities, their brains, their middos, and their character, not their beauty.

I don't allow my sons to walk around the house in clothing that doesn't meet my standards of human dignity. For example, I don't allow them to wear tank tops or shorts around the house, because I don't consider that dignified attire. If you wear shorts to sleep in (one of my sons sleeps in nothing but shorts, he's always hot at night), you put on a robe when you leave your room to go to the bathroom. I just consider that respectful of your "tzelem elokim" and the "tzelem elokim" of the people around you.

This is not any different from most RW yeshivishe families, so if someone is asking what the standard is in such a family, that is indeed the standard.

There's a lot of call on this site for people being less judgemental. Somehow, the "people" who are judgemental are always those who are "to the right of me." I'm pointing out - respectfully - that judgmentalism goes both ways.