Was I inappropriate towards male guest?

amother

Sat, Jan 23 2010, 7:22 pm

Today we had a male guest for the seuda and afterwards, dh told me that during conversation, I got a bit worked up and was gesticulating and talking excitedly (we were discussing the health care law LOL

) and it was inappropriate to talk like that to a male "stranger" (unrelated man, he means.) Now, we weren't having an argument or anything; as far as I can recall I was just explaining why my insurance wasn't so good even though it's expensive and stuff like that (this man isn't American). Maybe I raised my voice a bit - I can get carried away when discussing things - but I wasn't being dramatic or anything like that.

Dh sometimes has these strange hangups about the way I interact with men (he gives me the third degree after every ob-gyn visit and has criticized me a few times about how I speak to men). Does it sound like I was being inappropriate, or is dh being paranoid? (We are chassidish, btw, maybe that makes a difference, although our guest is not.) I felt attacked by dh's comment and want to know if it was justified.

greenfire

Sat, Jan 23 2010, 7:30 pm

so now you're not allowed to talk to your ob-gyn if he's a male ... that part certainly sounds like the dh is paranoid ...

does he expect you to stay in the kitchen serving food with your mouth shut ... What

amother

Sat, Jan 23 2010, 7:37 pm

I know how you feel...my dh was like this but has "mellowed" with time. But I do recommend trying to understand where he is coming from because a woman should really try to hold where her husband holds in terms of tzniut, because otherwise, there can be problems...

However, if he is going to demand a high standard from you...he should give you support in being machmir...For instance, instead of giving you the 3rd degree after every OB GYN visit, he should go with you. (some rabbonim pasken that a woman should not see a male doctor if there is no one at least in the lobby. Since there is no way of knowing whether the lobby is going to be empty or not, it seems to make sense to take someone)..

When we were first married, my husband was talking to a man and said "Shabbat Shlalom!" I also said "Shabbat Shalom" and he lectured me never to say "Shalom" to a man because of the story of Shalomis bat Divri (in the Torah, the only Jewish woman in mitzrayim to have been seduced by an Egyptian because she kept saying "Shalom" to everyone, men and women.") Instead of getting upset, I discussed the practical ramifications of this. "So what if a man says Shabbat Shalom to me? So what if I go to the store and the shopkeeper greets me? Should I be rude and say nothing? (etc...and I told him BTW the neighbors are so machmir that the wife never goes to the macolet, to avoid becoming "Too familiar" with the shopkeeper ...so the man always goes) and I said, "perhaps it is better for you to do all the shopping' (I think among Sephardim, the man does the shopping because it is considered more modest...well in the shuks one could understand)

So basically, instead of feeling attacked, work out all the ramifications with him. My husband has dropped some of the demands, because he doesn't want to go with me to the OB GYN (I take my oldest child to sit in the lobby), he doesn't want the macolet owner to think we are rude if I never greet him (but he said, keeping the story in the Torah in mind, just avoid davka saying "Shalom" and say "Yom Tov" instead) and he isn't willing to go to the macolet instead of me.

To maintain a high level of tzniut in the interpersonal sense, the husband really has to be supportive of the wife and enable her to maintain the level. But perhaps your dh will realize, like mine, that it isn't "doable" for him. Does he really want a wife who remains silent during a meal? I doubt this. Or maybe just not ot get too excited about things. Discuss the parameters with him and see if they are reasonable/practical.etc...

You could see it as a compliment rather than feel attacked. I remember when dh got very upset when I was walking around in stockings he thought were too "see through" Well, at least he cared!

Ruchel

Sat, Jan 23 2010, 7:55 pm

Quote:

he lectured me never to say "Shalom" to a man because of the story of Shalomis bat Divri (in the Torah, the only Jewish woman in mitzrayim to have been seduced by an Egyptian because she kept saying "Shalom" to everyone, men and women.")

There must be a lot more to this story. Here on contrary it is praiseworthy to be respectful of your fellow Jew and non Jew.

Quote:

I think among Sephardim, the man does the shopping because it is considered more modest...well in the shuks one could understand

All around the Mediterranea there are such communities, shuk or not, where the husband does all the shopping.

Quote:

he said, keeping the story in the Torah in mind, just avoid davka saying "Shalom" and say "Yom Tov" instead

I doubt the word shalom is the problem. It is (but no one that I know rules that way) talking to strangers.

I feel here many husbands need a strong rabbinical guidance. It sounds like a BT or FFB not knowing what is done or not so going by the strictest story he can find...

Rodent

Sun, Jan 24 2010, 4:39 pm

My vote is on paranoid.
Personally I think much of the "overly tznua" stuff just smacks of sexism.

cookiemilk

Sun, Jan 24 2010, 5:01 pm

I suggest a fair compromise. If your Dh demands of you to be overly curcomspect with regards to how you express yourselves in conversation with others he must maintain the vry same standard for himself. In ALL the interactions that he conducts with others of the opposite gender. I have seen time and time again the way that the dh comments on the wife's behavior and then you see how he himself is not too careful with his own.
I think OP had a right to participate in any conversation and that the very fact that her dh observed and told her to bring down here level of communication smacks of chauvinism, but that is my own opinion. If he is uncomfortable with sharing his wife he would be better off keeping those guests away from his home. As far as her communicating with her male doctor???? He has choices. He can do as my dh does and accompany her there and offer support and communication assistance duriing the visit and/ or he can stay away and keep his opinions to himself. OP has a right to her intellectual expression, and to good medical care.

luvsdarkchocolate

Sun, Jan 24 2010, 5:09 pm

I agree with Rodent:

Quote:

My vote is on paranoid.
Personally I think much of the "overly tznua" stuff just smacks of sexism.

MamO3

Sun, Jan 24 2010, 5:22 pm

I think some men sometimes take it a step too far. This is a slightly different situation, when the man has to talk to strange woman. I recently saw a non jewish woman holding open a door to let a jewish man through, he kept his head lowered and never even bothered to say thank you. the woman was furious, 'you can say thank you.' she told him.
We're not supposed to befriend the opposite gender but some people just take it totally out of context. Does saying thank you mean you're having some kind of relationship with the woman?

Tefila

Sun, Jan 24 2010, 5:48 pm

B'h
OP From what you have written so far I'd have to concur that when speaking with men we should not be as comfortable as we would be with our women friends . And know Tznius is not only in dress and thought but in speech too.

amother

Sun, Jan 24 2010, 6:10 pm

OP, I am also chassidish and I understand how you feel EXACTLY.

we are more "modern chassidish" which means that there is more interaction with males for me (ie, I work, in a not all women environment, we have had people other than family over for meals) than some of my sibs and stuff but like my DH still gets very nervous from this, if I get into serious conversations with anyone male....

amother

Tue, Jan 26 2010, 12:49 pm

OP I have the same problem. I am a very friendly and chatty person, and if we have male shabbos guests this includes being friendly/chatty towards them. But I am realizing that there is a fine line between being friendly and being flirty, and sometimes these lines are blurred even if we don't mean for them to be. My husband recently told me that he thought I was being a little "too friendly" with a couple of our male guests, and I took his words to heart. I think in this arena it's better to err on the side of caution, and be extra-careful, to preserve the sanctity of our marriages. Someone told me it is a grave sin for a woman to make a married man feel attracted to her, and men are so easily attracted to women. So why not be on the safe side? (Talking to myself here!)

amother

Tue, Jan 26 2010, 5:18 pm

OP here - thanks everyone for your input, especially the first and the last amother who gave me some food for thought. Believe me, I was not flirting (how flirtatious can you be when discussing health insurance??) but I will try to tone myself down some more. I do not have a problem with dh's interactions with women, he's pretty good at keeping the balance, even though his work requires quite a bit of interaction with female customers.

elishevat

Sun, Jul 17 2016, 4:38 am

amother wrote:

So what if I go to the store and the shopkeeper greets me? Should I be rude and say nothing? (etc...and I told him BTW the neighbors are so machmir that the wife never goes to the macolet, to avoid becoming "Too familiar" with the shopkeeper ...so the man always goes) and I said, "perhaps it is better for you to do all the shopping' (I think among Sephardim, the man does the shopping because it is considered more modest...well in the shuks one could understand)

I send my husband to do the shopping in our local fruit and veg shuk because there are mostly men there and I get pushed and shoved and feel uncomfortable. However, I don't send him to the local supermarket (unless there is absolutely no other way for me to go) because of all the pritzus there.

shabbatiscoming

Sun, Jul 17 2016, 5:48 am

elishevat wrote:

first of all if you dont want your husband to see pritzut then dont let him leave your home.
second of all this thread is from 2010.

2cents

Sun, Jul 17 2016, 8:15 am

Your husband was probably enchanted by your vivacious and and bubbly demeanor and didn't want it directed at another man. He didn't make harsh and ridiculous statements, asking you to not speak or to stay in the kitchen. He just asked you to tone what he's sees as super attractive behavior down with other men.

Imagine if your dh was very friendly and charming. If he were focusing that friendliness on a female guest, wouldn't you reserve the right to ask him to tone it down?