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marina

Sun, Jul 24 2016, 2:27 pm

Quote:

No country maintains or dissolves a relationship with the US because the President insulted its leaders. In fact, for all the reasons Donald Trump shouldn't be President, his ability to insult people who need insulting might be the single reason he should be President. Perhaps we could leave Pence in charge at home and just send Donald around the world to yell at whoever is misbehaving at any given moment. Instead of the US as "the world's policeman," we could have the US as "the world's fed-up dad."

Diplomacy is important. If you're a foreign leader who is on the fence about cooperating with US interests and you personally or your citizens have been insulted by "the world's fed-up dad," it will be difficult to continue negotiations and still save face. Back home, you'll be seen as weakling who continues negotiating with someone who clearly sneers at you and your values...a common critique of this current administration.

And that's only for people on the fence. What about our allies? Call our allies insane a few times and they're not running to work with us on everything so much.

I think that the idea that Trump will insult a bunch of people and then everyone will behave better and play nicely in the sandbox is simplistic. I'm obviously an ignoramus on this topic, but I really don't think that's how world foreign policy works.

Fox

Sun, Jul 24 2016, 2:32 pm

marina wrote:

If the crimes of an illegal immigrant is... being illegal, that doesn't really help create that much fear, does it?

I can't for the life of me figure out why anyone cares so much about illegal immigration.

The reason we don't stop illegal immigration is because we desperately need those illegal immigrants to do jobs that most of us don't want to do.

Of course, there are some problems with importing people to pick your lettuce, cut your grass, and wash your dishes:

* Emergency health care costs borne by hospitals who cannot and should not refuse treatment.

* The ability of genuine criminals to inflict harm on residents.

* The use of public services by people who pay minimal taxes.

But surely those aren't insurmountable problems. Issue short-term work visas good in specific industries for a few months. The cost of the visa would include enough to cover some minimal level of emergency health care as well as subsidize state and local law enforcement. Taxes would be deducted from pay. Criminal checks would obviously be part of the process, and convictions for serious crimes while in the US would result in permanent revocation.

Immigrants and employers who attempted to avoid such a system -- and there would be many -- could then be treated a great deal more harshly. Right now, we have a system that is tough but we don't really mean it. Wouldn't it be better to have a system that was less harsh but actually had teeth?

marina

Sun, Jul 24 2016, 2:34 pm

Quote:

Someone who says, "How could anyone possibly vote for Trump?" might as well hand him a vote. The Internet has allowed for a greater range of conservative voices, and all of them are eager and willing to point out to voters, "See! These leftists think you're a troglodyte, misogynist, racist, provincial, inbred bumpkin if you even think about voting for Trump!"

I'm hearing this from some of my FB friends and it sounds like an approach people don't- for some reason - take when discussing the middle east. Anytime someone says "How could anyone possibly support palestinians?" there's not a chorus of voices saying OMG I WAS ON THE FENCE BUT NOW I'M DONATING TO THE PLO.

We shouldn't demonize Trump supporters as inbred and stupid because it's not true, not because this would somehow cause more people to vote for Trump.

But yes, if they're not racist, Trump supporters are - at the very least- okay with electing a candidate who makes bigoted statements in public. That's as true as Hillary supporters being okay with electing a candidate who has been investigated by the FBI.

marina

Sun, Jul 24 2016, 2:36 pm

Fox wrote:

I can't for the life of me figure out why anyone cares so much about illegal immigration.

Because frightened people will vote for whomever promises safety. So those brown people must be scary.

Fox

Sun, Jul 24 2016, 2:48 pm

marina wrote:

And that's only for people on the fence. What about our allies? Call our allies insane a few times and they're not running to work with us on everything so much.

The question is how much we can project our own perceptions on the rest of the world when it comes to foreign policy. To you and me, it seems obvious that insulting people is a lousy way to gain their cooperation. And in America, that's more or less true.

However, many of the most troubled areas of the world don't see things precisely as we do. They would rather ally themselves with someone they consider strong, even if it means being occasionally called a name. They interpret what we call "diplomacy" as "acquiescence."

I once heard a great quote about the legacy of the Vietnam War from Dr. David Zarefsky, who said, "The US went to war in Vietnam to demonstrate to her allies that she would stand behind them no matter what. Instead, the Vietnam War cost America so much that it ensured no ally could rely on that level of support in the future."

I think this is analogous to how many of our allies see us: our acrobatic attempts to avoid insulting anyone only prove to them that we will be equally timid in the event of a real threat.

sequoia

Sun, Jul 24 2016, 2:50 pm

But we SHOULDN'T seek the support of evil psycho paranoid dictators. We should help burgeoning democracies who have been deprived of nukes, attacked, intimidated, and overrun with mercenaries.

Fox

Sun, Jul 24 2016, 3:04 pm

marina wrote:

Anytime someone says "How could anyone possibly support palestinians?" there's not a chorus of voices saying OMG I WAS ON THE FENCE BUT NOW I'M DONATING TO THE PLO.

Of course there is! Initially, the argument made by anti-Israel activists was that the US and Jews were reflexively supporting Israel even when the Israeli government was in the wrong. They don't have to make that argument explicitly anymore because so many Jews are willing to make it for them by stating, "I'm Jewish, but . . . " and then explaining how they don't support Israel for whatever reason.

As a result, we're now at the point where no one in polite company would say, "How could anyone possibly support the Palestinians?" Those who do are immediately met with a barage of alleged misbehavior on the part of Israel.

marina wrote:

But yes, if they're not racist, Trump supporters are - at the very least- okay with electing a candidate who makes bigoted statements in public. That's as true as Hillary supporters being okay with electing a candidate who has been investigated by the FBI.

I don't think it's fair to assume that they're "okay with electing a candidate who makes bigoted statements in public." Rather, they believe or at least hope that his bigoted statements reflect bluster rather than reality. That may be naive on their part, but they are willing to risk it rather than vote for Clinton.

Fox

Sun, Jul 24 2016, 3:07 pm

sequoia wrote:

But we SHOULDN'T seek the support of evil psycho paranoid dictators. We should help burgeoning democracies who have been deprived of nukes, attacked, intimidated, and overrun with mercenaries.

Agreed, but the devil is in the details. Our attempts in Iraq and Afghanistan haven't exactly been stellar successes, and the aftermath of the "Arab Spring" has made things worse rather than better.

For a variety of reasons, there are a lot of people in the world who don't particularly want democracy.

sequoia

Sun, Jul 24 2016, 3:09 pm

Fox wrote:

For a variety of reasons, there are a lot of people in the world who don't particularly want democracy.

I think I know better what the people of Ukraine want.

Fox

Sun, Jul 24 2016, 3:23 pm

sequoia wrote:

I think I know better what the people of Ukraine want.

Of course. But Ukraine is in a tough position no matter who wins the election.

Trump is obviously problematic -- he doesn't seem to mind if Putin gobbles up Europe.

Clinton talks a better game, promising arms and money, but has financial links with oligarchs whose motives and loyalties are, at best, mixed.

marina

Sun, Jul 24 2016, 3:30 pm

Quote:

The non-racist Trump supporters are okay with electing a candidate who makes bigoted statements in public because they believe or hope that his bigoted statements reflect bluster rather than reality.

amother

Maroon

Sun, Jul 24 2016, 4:51 pm

[quote="marina"]

Quote:

Look at the parts that are bolded. You or the websites you cite, agree that what Trump says is true. So in your own words, he didn't lie. Thank you for clarifying that.

marina wrote:

Sure. And the headlines that proclaim "Israeli soldiers kill palestinian in invasion" are also technically true. If you are interested in the truth, you don't just accept little soundbites or simplistic explanations.

marina wrote:

the states would have to collect data differentiating btw illegals and citizens. And most states- dk why - don't do that. Even Texas which distinguishes "criminal aliens" from citizens, includes both legal and illegal aliens in that term. Sorry! Not so simple.

In other words, you are okay if government officials don't differentiate between x and y but you are not okay with it when Trump does the same thing that government officials do.. Hmm...

I guess people, including government officials, cherry pick data all the times. For example, some people say that the cops only kill black people when that is far from the truth. Some people say that all white people are privileged when that is far from the truth-- http://www.theamericanconserva.....ites/

But its okay for some people to cherry pick things just as long as their last name isn't Trump.. Why do you think that is?

marina wrote:

Trump's entire speech was about fear. We should all fear the murderous, thieving illegals who are coming to kill us as we sleep and rape our daughters in front of our eyes. If the crimes of an illegal immigrant is... being illegal, that doesn't really help create that much fear, does it?

Are you saying that its not okay for illegal aliens to use the "undocumented" defense? Because I really need money and was getting ready to go to the bank to take out money despite not having a documented account. And I really need a car so I was planning on taking one from the street and then saying that I am the new undocumented owner of said car.. Or would being "undocumented" not qualify as a defense because I am a legal citizen?

But we must have been listening to very different speeches because I did not hear any fearmongering. Trump distinguished between legal immigrants and illegal aliens. Trump was in support of the black and Latino communities. Trump was very clear about wiping out muslim terrorists like Isis. Trump spoke in support of Israel. These and other things he said did not come across as fearmongering.

I guess its easy for you to generalize his speech and dismiss it as fearmongering because that will give you control over what people say and do. That will allow you to do whatever you want and then sweep things under the rug saying it never happened which is what this corrupt administration has been doing and is trying to continue doing. They have silenced law abiding American citizens while giving criminals a platform to loudly voice their opinion and destroy the country from the inside. Now the silenced people have awoken and are speaking their minds again but you just can't handle it so you try to silence them by calling them all sorts of abusive names I.e. racists, bigots, etc. Its just not working so you have to go to idiotic nonsensical "lies" (which the media itself said was true) in order to continue silencing people and forcing them to comply with your agenda of destroying America completely. Pathetic.

amother

Maroon

Sun, Jul 24 2016, 5:06 pm

marina wrote:

Because frightened people will vote for whomever promises safety. So those brown people must be scary.

There are allegedly more white skinned illegal aliens than brown skinned illegal aliens. But if you make it about brown skin then you can silence dissenters by calling them racists, bigots, etc.. Same with cops killing people. More white people are killed by cops but if you only talk about the black people being killed then you can call the cops racists. There is no excuse for cops to kill anyone regardless of their skin color and there is no excuse for illegal aliens, regardless of their skin color, to get away with breaking American law either. That is all.

marina

Sun, Jul 24 2016, 9:51 pm

Quote:

The original sentence you quoted was, “The number of police officers killed in the line of duty has risen by almost 50% compared to this point last year.” The sources you cited verified this to be true so he did not lie about this. The real problem you have with what Trump said is that he did not differentiate between x and y but then you say that government officials do not have to differentiate between x and y--

marina wrote:
the states would have to collect data differentiating btw illegals and citizens. And most states- dk why - don't do that. Even Texas which distinguishes "criminal aliens" from citizens, includes both legal and illegal aliens in that term. Sorry! Not so simple.

In other words, you are okay if government officials don't differentiate between x and y but you are not okay with it when Trump does the same thing that government officials do.. Hmm...

guess people, including government officials, cherry pick data all the times. For example, some people say that the cops only kill black people when that is far from the truth. Some people say that all white people are privileged when that is far from the truth-- http://www.theamericanconserva.....or-whites/

But its okay for some people to cherry pick things just as long as their last name isn't Trump.. Why do you think that is?

This is why we can't have nice things Maroon Amother. I didn't say it's okay for people to cherry pick data as long as their last name isn't Trump. Since you seem to be confused about what I am saying, let me be very clear:

1. I am not saying Donald Trump lies 100% of the time.

2. I am not saying other people, including government employees, lie 0% of the time.

3. I am not saying both of the above use statistics without bias.

What I am saying:

Everyone should back up whatever claims they make with accurate statistics that reflect the entire picture. All statisticians I have ever read agree that violent crimes such as murders - including those against police officers- have been dropping for the past several decades. All of them agree that this has nothing to do with what president is currently in the White House and more to do with other factors.

America is now literally safer than ever in the last 20 years.

Trump, if he wants to convince us that the world is a scary and dangerous place and cops are being killed right and left and he is my hero and savior from the violent cop-killers all around us- he had better bring some good data, not **** like he spouted at the convention.

Analogy: People are getting thinner and thinner in America, because my friends and I lost 10 pounds last month.

Quote:

NO. THAT IS NOT WHAT I AM SAYING. What I am saying is that Trump is painting a picture of illegal immigrants as violent bloodthirsty savages coming for our very lives. The data does not support him. Most crimes that illegals commit are not murder or rape. Most crimes that illegals commit are coming into the country illegally and driving without a license.

Do you know how many frum illegal immigrants there are? Girls and boys who came to America, overstayed and are happily marrying an American citizen? Half of my friends in seminary were in this situation. They aren't going to murder and rape anyone- but they were criminals.

amother wrote:

But we must have been listening to very different speeches because I did not hear any fearmongering. Trump distinguished between legal immigrants and illegal aliens. Trump was in support of the black and Latino communities. Trump was very clear about wiping out muslim terrorists like Isis. Trump spoke in support of Israel. These and other things he said did not come across as fearmongering.

I guess its easy for you to generalize his speech and dismiss it as fearmongering because that will give you control over what people say and do. That will allow you to do whatever you want and then sweep things under the rug saying it never happened which is what this corrupt administration has been doing and is trying to continue doing. They have silenced law abiding American citizens while giving criminals a platform to loudly voice their opinion and destroy the country from the inside. Now the silenced people have awoken and are speaking their minds again but you just can't handle it so you try to silence them by calling them all sorts of abusive names I.e. racists, bigots, etc. Its just not working so you have to go to idiotic nonsensical "lies" (which the media itself said was true) in order to continue silencing people and forcing them to comply with your agenda of destroying America completely. Pathetic.

I think I understand. Let me see if I got the last paragraph right: this administration has given criminals a platform to destroy America from the inside and I - Marina- am trying to silence the people because of my agenda to destroy America completely.

Yep, no fear mongering at all.

marina

Sun, Jul 24 2016, 10:01 pm

amother wrote:

1. I welcome statistical evidence for your first sentence. Plse cite some.

2.

Quote:

More white people are killed by cops but if you only talk about the black people being killed then you can call the cops racists.

Really now?

Let's apply this logic to something less violent and more personal. More nonJews than frum Jews lose their jobs because of attendance issues, but if you only talk about the frum people who lose their jobs because of shabbos and yomtov, then that's just your agenda of calling all employers anti-semites.

Therefore we shouldn't talk about possible antisemitism when employers don't hire frum Jews, and instead we should just say: there is no excuse for employers to fire anyone regardless of their religion. Sound right?

marina

Sun, Jul 24 2016, 10:09 pm

Illegal Aliens generally- I feel like a lot of people are just spouting off about illegal aliens. The mood is HEY MAN DON'T CUT IN FRONT OF EVERYONE-- GET TO THE BACK OF THE LINE. Like illegals are here illegally b/c they are just lazy morons who couldn't wait their turn and don't care about laws.

The people spouting off like that are often completely unfamiliar with the immigration process, immigration quotas, annual salaries in 3rd world countries, persecution, etc. They also don't know illegal immigrants or don't know that the people that they know are illegals.

I'm an immigrant and my legal immigration status was nothing I worked hard for or achieved. It was nothing that my parents achieved. It was exclusively a factor of several privileges and lucky fortunes and when I think about illegals- risking death and human trafficking for a chance to get minimum wage in a safer country - all I think of is "there but for the grace of God go I."

amother

Floralwhite

Sun, Jul 24 2016, 10:18 pm

marina wrote:

Quote:

The non-racist Trump supporters are okay with electing a candidate who makes bigoted statements in public because they believe or hope that his bigoted statements reflect bluster rather than reality.

Trump has now doubled down and is willing to place even more restrictions on Muslims. Jews voting for him sure have short memories.

tzatza

Sun, Jul 24 2016, 10:43 pm

1. Marina, I am guessing you are not an immigrant?
I am...from former Soviet Union...let's discuss immigration.
2. Sequoia, I agree with you. Also, American-borns need to understand that despite openness of the internet, they know close to nothing about how the other hemisphere thinks/feels and breathes.
3. I listened to the entire Trump's speech from beginning to end.. I fail to see any fear-mongering. Don't tell me in all seriousness that you have no fears in your heart from just listening to news. Reading some of the comments, here and other places, I feel that people do not watch/read news. Everything is nice and quiet in their neck of the woods. As if they turned on Trump's speeches and learnt a totally new reality.

Amarante

Sun, Jul 24 2016, 10:46 pm

amother wrote:

Trump has now doubled down and is willing to place even more restrictions on Muslims. Jews voting for him sure have short memories.

Governor Kasich has put an anti Trump ad on his website which paraphrases the famous words of Martin Niemöller. He was a Protestant pastor who emerged as an outspoken public foe of Adolf Hitler and spent the last seven years of Nazi rule in concentration camps.

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

tzatza

Sun, Jul 24 2016, 10:52 pm

marina wrote:

There is a reason people choose to go over the border in thousands as opposed to go through legal channels. There is nothing wrong with people escaping hardships and calling a new country their "home", but many do not do that today and by the way, yes, please look at Europe (Germany/ France/ Brussels). These things will become common place there and spill over here as well. I do worry, even if I agree that many illegal immigrants are not a threat, but Trump is right about at least talking about it (whatever comes of the actions remains to be seen). It is not just security, but burden on economy and resources. Yes, many work and even pay taxes, but many don't. Their income goes back to families left in country of origin. How many illegals come here out of true fear for their lives and how many just for economical gain? Nothing wrong with latter reason, but it must be done legally.

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