Would anyone in LA like have us for shobbos?

ruchelbuckle

Tue, Jul 26 2016, 11:22 am

"Original" Amother: thank you for explaining yourself.

I think that there are PLENTY of valid reasons not to host strangers for shabbos, especially for sleeping. That being said, there is really no excuse for calling people names or imply that their intentions are less than honest. If you can't/don't want to take the risk, etc.... that's fine. But no reason to make people feel bad.

RdMom: I would start a new thread regarding shabbos hospitality in Atlanta.

amother

Sapphire

Tue, Jul 26 2016, 8:43 pm

ruchelbuckle wrote:

I agree 100%. As I explained in my apology, I misread the OP. There is nothing wrong if one is honest and upfront about their intentions.

That having been said, my misread can serve as a warning: if you aren't upfront about your hospitality "needs", you run the risk of hurting your hosts' feelings, as well as "spoiling the pot" for the vacationers who come after you. As much as some posters may find my thoughts on the matter deplorable, trust me, I didn't get to be like this in a vacuum.

Seas

Tue, Jul 26 2016, 9:59 pm

amother wrote:

I have a friend who, as a child, woke up and found the Shabbos guest in her bedroom standing over her bed. BH she had the sense to scream for her parents.

Also, Seas, haven't you posted before that you only host people who are Shomer Shabbos? How do you reconcile that with your open door policy?

Open door for frum Jews. Actually TBH we do have house rules, and have in the past stopped inviting certain guests because they weren't behaving. Though had they just knocked on the door (which happens fairly often) we'd have welcomed them in.

(As a matter of fact my DH told me last week that he's thinking of inviting 1 or 2 local teenagers who are unfortunately OTD, in order to be mekarev them. His reasoning is that these specific teens are both victims of their circumstances - not that it absolves them of personal responsibility - and have reasonable potential to return. He still wants to discuss it with his rav, though, before he does anything.)

Seas

Tue, Jul 26 2016, 10:01 pm

Chayalle wrote:

I do think there's more to it than this. I happily host company all the time, as I've posted, but my company comes referred by neighbors and friends that I trust.

One of my siblings has had an open house to company in the past. But after an experience where she felt that a male guest was inappropriately interested in her young daughters, to the extent that she skipped her usual shabbos afternoon rest and stayed around supervising, she modified her policy to check up on potential company in advance.

No one should feel uncomfortable in their own home. And our families' safety comes first.

I think the OP's post about providing references covers this.

True. I guess it depends on the layout of the house, amongst other factors. One should definitely never ever sacrifice the safety, physical or spiritual, of one's own family in order to take in guests.

Seas

Thu, Sep 08 2016, 9:34 pm

Seas wrote:

My husband discussed it with his rav who told him under no circumstances should he take in mechalelei Shabbos. He can be nice to and mekarev them outside of the house (which he's since made a point of going out of his way to do), but for the sake of our own children - to whom we have the first and biggest responsibility - only frum guests should be invited into the home.

(The rav said that unfortunately all those who've had 'open door' policies, had problems with their own children.)

BH we continue to have an open door policy, with guests adorning our Shabbos meals - some of whom just turn up at some point during the meal without even having let us know before - and it's something I'm proud of. However it remains limited to shoimrei Shabbos.

amother

Orchid

Thu, Sep 08 2016, 11:07 pm

Seas wrote:

Aha. And how do you verify their status? Do you require a written hilchos shabbos test? Do you spy on them to check on their Shabbos performance? Seriously, how would you really know who is or isn't shomer shabbos and worthy of gracing your holy home with their presence?

cnc

Fri, Sep 09 2016, 9:20 am

Seas wrote:

I recommend you ask your rav, just like we did. I'm

As to the silly question of how we know who's shomer Shabbos, what I meant is we don't invite guests who are officially OTD, even though we do have plenty of 'at risk' guests.

Does your policy only apply to kiruv kerovim- or also to kiruv rechokim?

(Meaning do you not only allow people that are OTD or also people that were not frum in the first place?)

Seas

Fri, Sep 09 2016, 10:14 am

I don't know as it hasn't really been relevant. If it would be, my DH would discuss it with his rav.

FTR the rav with whom my DH discussed it is very active in kiruv OTDs, and it's not like he doesn't understand the issues. However, as he told my DH, he only sees them either in the street or in his office - never in his home where his children are.

Case in point, recently I stayed at the house of someone close to me who has someone close who's gone OTD. She invited that person over to the Shabbos meal, and they came. At some point the host mentioned something about the room being quite dark, so this OTD got up and despite her protests turned on another light.

I wouldn't want my children (or even myself) to ever be exposed to such blatant in-your-face chilul Shabbos, and I actually think it's extremely irresponsible of the host to invite that person knowing they could do such a thing.

Those gutless amothers who 'hug' my posts, I'd like to understand what it is you disagree with. Do you think it's okay for us and our children to willingly expose ourselves to such blatant chilul Shabbos and insolence to Hashem? Do you think I have some kind of obligation to everyone who went OTD (without judging)? Am I not doing enough by providing at risk people with warm Shabbos meals?

Last edited by Seas on Fri, Sep 09 2016, 11:44 am; edited 1 time in total

sky

Fri, Sep 09 2016, 10:36 am

We also host a lot of people for shabbos. I wouldn't say its an open door policy but lots of interesting people have come.

I will not leave guests even if we know them well alone with my children. they sleep on a different floor and I don't nap shabbos afternoon if they are over.

If we have a guest that we totally don't know I will call references.

If guests have made us very uncomfortable I will not invite them back (example: 2 male guests, who wouldn't leave, and joined a women's only melava malka in my home, and then tried joining a children's birthday party in my home once they were well past their invitation and ate every morsel of food in the house).

We do have many struggling boys hang it in our home. But I expect them to act a certain way. For example one boy who we like very much responded when I asked him to bench with the mezumin - that it was like him asking me to read from the koran. I've have him back but not when my kids are around. (we do have guidelines how to have them in mind by brachos and benching but I'd rather not have people over with blatant disregard to halacha, similar to Seas - ie - will not wash before the meal)

I will have non shomer shabbos as long as they are not mechalel shabbos in public and stay by me the entire shabbos. (per my rav). I"d assume for somene's parents it would be different.

Last edited by sky on Fri, Sep 09 2016, 10:39 am; edited 2 times in total

sky

Fri, Sep 09 2016, 10:36 am

out-of-towner wrote:

Seas, all I can say is that it seems like you don't have relatives who were never Frum, and have never been in a place where you had to look the other way and explain to your children that they have a different lifestyle. It's not easy, especially when they are close relatives who actually respect and appreciate your Frumkeit, even if they don't understand or aspire to it.

And I am Chassidish BTW.

I would think a person with non frum family would be advised on different issues very differently than those who are just hosting random people.

I know I follow very different guidelines than my friend whose in laws aren't frum, and it makes sense to me.

If you are having people who aren't relatives and being placed by you then you don't know in advance if they will respect and appreciate. (similar to Seas story where the women turned on the lights, that would upset me as well)

I know many will disagree but: I once hosted students from a college for shabbos. They were told to dress within certain guidelines. They really tried to be respectful but their dress was really not tzinius (min-skirts, low cut shirts). They sang the whole meal. And the discussions weren't great. They were lovely girls and really tried hard and loved shabbos, but now that my kids are older I'm taking a break from doing such hosting. Its not for my stage of life or situation.

Chayalle

Fri, Sep 09 2016, 11:13 am

Seas wrote:

I don't know as it hasn't really been relevant. If it would be, my DH would discuss it with his rav.

FTR the rav with whom my DH discussed it is very active in kiruv OTDs, and it's not like he doesn't understand the issues. However, as he told my DH, he only sees them either in the street or in his office - never in his home where his children are.

Case in point, recently I stayed at the house of someone close to me who has someone close who's gone OTD. She invited that person over to the Shabbos meal, and they came. At some point the host mentioned something about the room being quite dark, so this OTD got up and despite her protests turned on another light.

I wouldn't want my children (or even myself) to ever be exposed to such blatant in-your-face chilul Shabbos, and I actually think it's extremely irresponsible of the host to invite that person knowing they could do such a thing.

Those gutless amothers who 'hug' my posts, I'd like to understand what it is you disagree with. Do you think it's okay for us and our children to willingly expose ourselves to such blatant chilul Shabbos and insolence to Hashem? Do you think I have some kind of obligation to every shaigetz who went OTD (without judging)? Am I not doing enough by providing at risk people with warm Shabbos meals?

Seas, I just want to say that while I agree with the content of your post here to some extent, I really disagree with the tone of your last paragraph - calling OTD children shaigetz seems very heartless and cold. These are Hashem's children.

I happen to have a close relative who is OTD. She will turn lights on on shabbos (not in front of us). She uses bad language and inappropriate conversation. We were advised to host her on a limited basis. I would never call her that. She went thru alot in life and I don't judge her.

rae

Fri, Sep 09 2016, 11:40 am

I wouldn't want my children (or even myself) to ever be exposed to such blatant in-your-face chilul Shabbos, and I actually think it's extremely irresponsible of the host to invite that person knowing they could do such a thing.

Those gutless amothers who 'hug' my posts, I'd like to understand what it is you disagree with. Do you think it's okay for us and our children to willingly expose ourselves to such blatant chilul Shabbos and insolence to Hashem? Do you think I have some kind of obligation to every shaigetz who went OTD (without judging)? Am I not doing enough by providing at risk people with warm Shabbos meals?[/quote]

Ok, I'll post under my screen name and tell you what I found offensive about your post.
1) your children will probably be stronger and faster able to hold onto their yiddishkeit if they can respect others challenges and learn the deeper meaning of Shabbos and why it's so important and special to us. If your so scared of them getting hurt by another's actions then they don't have a deep enough appreciation for what Shabbos means and that's scary as they get older. They are going to get exposed to a lot of things as they get older and if you establish a strong foundation with questions answered, your already in a stronger better place.

2) "sheigitz" do I even need to explain how offensive that is. There are many different type of Jews and we are all part of klall yisroel. If that's what your kids are hearing from you are they going to trust you if they get confused to help them get life figured out. When children become teens their loyalty shifts from their "perfect" parents and families to their friends. Don't ever let them feel your on the other side or can't possibly understand.

3) this was your psak from your rav and I respect that. But there are thousands of frum families who host otd people all the time and their children are stronger and better off for that. I have never heard someone say that their kids went off because they were exposed to a chilul Shabbos guest. Maybe your family is not strong enough but give credit, lots of it to those who are.

That saying I do agree that you have to be careful with who you host and if you're not up to it/don't do it. It's the wrong thing for your family. But your tone and blanket statements, I found offensive.

cnc

Fri, Sep 09 2016, 11:42 am

Seas wrote:

I don't know as it hasn't really been relevant. If it would be, my DH would discuss it with his rav.

FTR the rav with whom my DH discussed it is very active in kiruv OTDs, and it's not like he doesn't understand the issues. However, as he told my DH, he only sees them either in the street or in his office - never in his home where his children are.

Case in point, recently I stayed at the house of someone close to me who has someone close who's gone OTD. She invited that person over to the Shabbos meal, and they came. At some point the host mentioned something about the room being quite dark, so this OTD got up and despite her protests turned on another light.

I wouldn't want my children (or even myself) to ever be exposed to such blatant in-your-face chilul Shabbos, and I actually think it's extremely irresponsible of the host to invite that person knowing they could do such a thing.

Those gutless amothers who 'hug' my posts, I'd like to understand what it is you disagree with. Do you think it's okay for us and our children to willingly expose ourselves to such blatant chilul Shabbos and insolence to Hashem? Do you think I have some kind of obligation to every shaigetz who went OTD (without judging)? Am I not doing enough by providing at risk people with warm Shabbos meals?

Unfortunately I have immediate family members that are "OTD" (I really dislike that word btw), and they would never ever do such a thing in front of me. They have basic respect. If they would do such a thing, I would most likely need to reevaluate my open door policy, but B"H my children have never been exposed to blatant disrespect as mentioned in your post.

Last edited by cnc on Fri, Sep 09 2016, 11:46 am; edited 1 time in total

Seas

Fri, Sep 09 2016, 11:44 am

Chayalle wrote:

OK I edited that.