What school did you go to?

Mama Bear

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 4:37 pm

After reading through the whole argument (Funny how an innocuous title such as "What school did you go to" devolved into an attack on Satmar, of course), I want to make a couple of points. I am not quoting individual posts, so I am addressing this to the general "you", and whoever wrote posts about this can know who they are, bc I don't remember who wrote what.

The vast majority of Satmar graduates are NOT interested in having a career, pursuing a college degree, and getting more education than they are currently getting. Yes, they are perfectly happy working in frum offices. Or special ed. Or whatever. Lofty ambitions to be some high profile career is not the norm. The handful of girls who graduate and feel resentful of the level of education they received, are few and far in between. The school is not obligated to makeover their image just to please those few people. Satmar and other similar chasidishe schools are FOUNDED on the principle that the girls do not and should not receive more education than they are already receiving, they are not encouraging girls to go to college and have a career. They certainly would never introduce more advanced subjects like literature classics or what have you. There would be a hue and cry from the parent body. The Satmar Rebbe, for whatever reasons, did not believe that girls should be learning from inside seforim. I'm sorry you feel gypped that you never actually learned Chumash and Rashi. Most Satmar girls do not feel that way. Frankly, I'm relieved that I didn't have to work harder and study more than we did. And most people I associate with feel the same way.

The types of advance studies you cited and the types of things you wish you learned, are not taught in most schools, chasidish or not. The BY Schools hardly teach a lot of those things. You wanted to go to a MO school? Would your parents ever put you in such a school? Or pay for it? I hardly think so.

Someone brought up the fact that Satmar only has 3 hours of secular educaiton and not 6-7. Ummmm,,, every single dingle bingle frum girls school has the same schedule. Everyone has 3-4 hours of limudei kodesh and 3-4 hours of limudei chol. That's why it's a JEWISH school. There are only so many hours in the day. Public school teaches limudei chol only, hence they have 7 hours. Do you really want our girls to sit in school til 10 pm? Because no Jewish school will cut on their hours of limudei kodesh. They're not a Jewish school anymore if their emphasis is chol and not kodesh.

To be honest, the very existence of secular subjects in Satmar and similar schools is bc it's a legal requirement. If it weren't, there would probably be a minimal English curriculum.

Lastly: Just go and read the pages and pages of threads about the crazy tuition prices in the MO schools and even in the BY schools, the ones that have electives and regents and extracurriculars. Some parents work crazy hours solely to pay tuition. Satmar and other chasidishe schools are dirt cheap affordable, and we the parents are super grateful. I would not want to shell out thousands of dollars and have to work full time plus, just to pay tuition. Granted, I have boys, and talmud torah is probably cheaper than school even in the greater jewish world. And yes while I am aware that the boys' English education is very minimal and lacking, I for one make up for it by educating my sons in things like science, Global History and Geography in our free time, on Shabbos afternoons, etc. There are kids' publications today like KindLine that teach my sons so many fascinating facts about the world and science, beyond what I ever learned in school.

So to summarize, I understand that you are mad that you only got a Satmar-level education. Let me assure you however, that there is a HUGE need for a school system with this education level. Change will never happen, because the parent body doesn't want it, and because it is not in line with the Satmar way of thinking. I'm sorry your parents sent you to a school you didn't want to go to. But that's your individual problem. I cite Maya as a great example of someone who took a problem and fixed it. She's not sitting around raging over it. Stop raging. It's not healthy.

I wish you good luck in your college and career ambitions.

sourstix

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 8:57 pm

Mama bear you said it well

amother

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 9:46 pm

Mrs. B was my principal over twenty years ago...she had a lust for power which she disguised as religious fervor. I'm sorry for anyone who suffered on account of her inability to generate and exude true love and compassion.

debsey

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 9:53 pm

Mama Bear wrote:

So to summarize, I understand that you are mad that you only got a Satmar-level education. Let me assure you however, that there is a HUGE need for a school system with this education level. Change will never happen, because the parent body doesn't want it, and because it is not in line with the Satmar way of thinking. I'm sorry your parents sent you to a school you didn't want to go to. But that's your individual problem. I cite Maya as a great example of someone who took a problem and fixed it. She's not sitting around raging over it. Stop raging. It's not healthy.

I wish you good luck in your college and career ambitions.

Just liking wasn't enough. Well said. Which goes back to that one essential right - parents have the right to educate their children according to their religion, and we tamper with that at our peril. As adults, we can pursue alternative educational paths, but tampering with freedom of religion is dangerous.

amother

Mint

Fri, Jul 29 2016, 9:42 am

debsey wrote:

the cases are unrelated. The issue in the KJ case is the issue of federal funding for a special ed school that essentially is serving only one community, which could violate the establishment clause - no connection to Yoder, completely different issues.

If Yoder won because of their religion then KJ should have won as well on the basis of religious freedom. But that was not the case. Yoder won because there was no federal funding involved, while KJ lost because federal funding was involved so their religion was irrelevant. Lesson-you can't use govt funding to do whatever you want.

amother wrote:

If I'm understanding correctly the KJ school district was actually given the right to do whatever they want.

That is called corruption and has nothing to do with the laws of the land.

But I guess Satmar is above the law and above Halacha which tells us to follow the law of the land.

amother

Cerise

Fri, Jul 29 2016, 9:52 am

amother wrote:

That is called corruption and has nothing to do with the laws of the land.

But I guess Satmar is above the law and above Halacha which tells us to follow the law of the land.

Im confused . I don't remember what I read and I'm not going back to it now...but didn't KJ win?

Chayalle

Fri, Jul 29 2016, 10:03 am

debsey wrote:

I am fluent in Modern Hebrew, it just hasn't been that useful to me. Spanish or Russian would have been much more useful and I wish I had learned more Yiddish every time I do HW with my sons.

BTW BYHS used to have a yiddish class. Probably before your day. I remember my mother and sisters discussing it.

After my days, my high school now has a Yiddish course Smile

.

My father grew up in Vienna, and my grandparents never spoke English. From a young age, we kids were taught Yiddish at home so we could communicate with them. When I visited them in Vienna, I managed to ask for directions and get to their shop (I wanted to sleep in) so I can count German as a I-can-barely-but-just-about-manage foreign language.

My seminary roommate was Swiss, and she and her friends (there were 6 Swissies my year) quickly discovered that they could not have private conversations in my room....

My younger sisters were exempt from the Yiddish program in high school, because they passed a test to get out of it.

I'm all for exposing kids to as many languages as possible. It's great!

amother

Fri, Jul 29 2016, 10:08 am

debsey wrote:

So you're ok with a network of ISIS day schools teaching the religious belief that all infidels must die? After all, tampering with freedom of religion is dangerous.

Chayalle

Fri, Jul 29 2016, 10:18 am

amother wrote:

So you're ok with a network of ISIS day schools teaching the religious belief that all infidels must die? After all, tampering with freedom of religion is dangerous.

I think we can all agree that there's a difference between a school that teaches according to it's religious principles that does not include the mass murder of others....and ISIS day schools.

amother

Mint

Fri, Jul 29 2016, 10:25 am

Mama Bear wrote:

The vast majority of Satmar graduates are NOT interested in having a career, pursuing a college degree, and getting more education than they are currently getting. Yes, they are perfectly happy working in frum offices. Or special ed. Or whatever. Lofty ambitions to be some high profile career is not the norm.

If you don't want to have a career then that is your prerogative but that is not a reason why girls shouldn't graduate with a legitimate high school diploma.

Mama Bear wrote:

The handful of girls who graduate and feel resentful of the level of education they received, are few and far in between.

Why should anyone be resentful of their education? What did the girls do wrong that they are not allowed to graduate with a legitimate high school diploma?

Mama Bear wrote:

The school is not obligated to makeover their image just to please those few people. Satmar and other similar chasidishe schools are FOUNDED on the principle that the girls do not and should not receive more education than they are already receiving, they are not encouraging girls to go to college and have a career. They certainly would never introduce more advanced subjects like literature classics or what have you. There would be a hue and cry from the parent body.The Satmar Rebbe, for whatever reasons, did not believe that girls should be learning from inside seforim. I'm sorry you feel gypped that you never actually learned Chumash and Rashi. Most Satmar girls do not feel that way. Frankly, I'm relieved that I didn't have to work harder and study more than we did. And most people I associate with feel the same way.The types of advance studies you cited and the types of things you wish you learned, are not taught in most schools, chasidish or not. The BY Schools hardly teach a lot of those things. You wanted to go to a MO school? Would your parents ever put you in such a school? Or pay for it? I hardly think so.

You are saying that the girls get a good enough education so why not allow them to graduate with a legitimate high school diploma? There is no need to make over their image, just add some exams that would allow the girls to get their diploma. Why is that so difficult? And why would any parent object to that if the girls are already taking other exams as well?

And yes, most chasidishe schools do allow their girls to graduate with a legitimate high school diploma so there is no reason why Satmar girls shouldn't be able to do the same thing. And most, if not all, chasidishe schools allow the girls to learn Chumash so don't use religion as a reason why Satmar girls dont learn Chumash as well (or graduate high school).

Mama Bear wrote:

Someone brought up the fact that Satmar only has 3 hours of secular educaiton and not 6-7. Ummmm,,, every single dingle bingle frum girls school has the same schedule. Everyone has 3-4 hours of limudei kodesh and 3-4 hours of limudei chol. That's why it's a JEWISH school. There are only so many hours in the day. Public school teaches limudei chol only, hence they have 7 hours. Do you really want our girls to sit in school til 10 pm? Because no Jewish school will cut on their hours of limudei kodesh. They're not a Jewish school anymore if their emphasis is chol and not kodesh.To be honest, the very existence of secular subjects in Satmar and similar schools is bc it's a legal requirement. If it weren't, there would probably be a minimal English curriculum.

The legal requirement is getting an equivalent education to students in public school which is not happening in Satmar. You only get 3 hours of secular studies a day but you don't take regents and/or other classes required by law to graduate high school with an accredited high school diploma. Plus, you don't learn Chumash, Rashi, etc. either. Other girls schools, including Chasidishe schools, do both so you don't get to count 6-7 hours of school when you don't have the same level of education as the girls from other chasidishe schools, let alone public school.

Mama Bear wrote:

Frankly, I'm relieved that I didn't have to work harder and study more than we did. And most people I associate with feel the same way.

So you didn't want to work hard, therefore all Satmar girls should not graduate with a high school diploma.

Mama Bear wrote:

Lastly: Just go and read the pages and pages of threads about the crazy tuition prices in the MO schools and even in the BY schools, the ones that have electives and regents and extracurriculars. Some parents work crazy hours solely to pay tuition. Satmar and other chasidishe schools are dirt cheap affordable, and we the parents are super grateful. I would not want to shell out thousands of dollars and have to work full time plus, just to pay tuition. Granted, I have boys, and talmud torah is probably cheaper than school even in the greater jewish world. And yes while I am aware that the boys' English education is very minimal and lacking, I for one make up for it by educating my sons in things like science, Global History and Geography in our free time, on Shabbos afternoons, etc. There are kids' publications today like KindLine that teach my sons so many fascinating facts about the world and science, beyond what I ever learned in school.

Nah, its not good to work crazy hours to pay for tuition. Its better to be on welfare and get govt assistance so that your kids can continue to be on welfare and get govt assistance. Or commit fraud, if all else fails. Unless they get very lucky and marry into a rich family or do well in business. I guess in that sense you are right, why bother graduating from high school if the goal is to just be supported by the govt and/or a rich father-in-law? Yeah, I can see why Satmar wouldn't want to get out of that kind of cycle...

Mama Bear wrote:

So to summarize, you didn't want to work hard in high school to get your high school diploma, therefore Satmar girls should work twice as hard than the rest of society, including Jewish girls, to get their degree. No wonder so many Satmar girls are going off the derech.

amother

Mint

Fri, Jul 29 2016, 10:27 am

amother wrote:

Im confused . I don't remember what I read and I'm not going back to it now...but didn't KJ win?

No, KJ did not win.

amother

Cerise

Fri, Jul 29 2016, 10:30 am

amother wrote:

No, KJ did not win.

Ok...gotta reread after Shabbos.

Maya

Fri, Jul 29 2016, 10:33 am

amother wrote:

No, KJ did not win.

Yes they did.
It was amended three times, but they got it in the end.

amother

Mint

Fri, Jul 29 2016, 10:37 am

Maya wrote:

Yes they did.
It was amended three times, but they got it in the end.

Where does it say that?

Maya

Fri, Jul 29 2016, 10:41 am

amother wrote:

That is called corruption and has nothing to do with the laws of the land.

But I guess Satmar is above the law and above Halacha which tells us to follow the law of the land.

While this may be true in many other instances, in this particular case, it won in court.
The language was amended to be more inclusive and not be applicable only to this religious community, but so far only KJ has taken "advantage" of it. It's legal.

Maya

Fri, Jul 29 2016, 10:41 am

amother wrote:

Where does it say that?

In the book I mentioned earlier on this thread.

amother

Fri, Jul 29 2016, 10:43 am

Chayalle wrote:

I think we can all agree that there's a difference between a school that teaches according to it's religious principles that does not include the mass murder of others....and ISIS day schools.

I don't agree. If your religious principles include genocide, those are your principles.

Last I checked, Jewish schools teach the theoretical genocide of Amalek. And lots of amothers here will tell you that their children have been taught that Jews are superior to the rest of humanity.

I'm not saying that as Jews we can't teach our own religious values. I'm saying that we can't insist on rights that we don't extend to others.

amother

Mint

Fri, Jul 29 2016, 10:43 am

Maya wrote:

This New York Times articles says otherwise-- http://www.nytimes.com/1999/05......html

Do you have any other sources that support your premise that KJ won?

Maya

Fri, Jul 29 2016, 10:47 am

amother wrote:

This New York Times articles says otherwise-- http://www.nytimes.com/1999/05......html

Do you have any other sources that support your premise that KJ won?

Check the date of the article. 1999

The article says "third and latest effort." As I wrote, there were three amendments, therefore, four tries. They won the fourth round because they made the language more inclusive.
I have the book but I'm not home now. I'm sure some more googling will get you the real facts.

happybeingamom

Fri, Jul 29 2016, 11:53 am

amother wrote:

Freedom of religion does not encompass the right to murder, just as freedom of speech does not give the right to scream fire in a crowded theater.