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Vent: tznius at the pool
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 29 2016, 7:17 am
return2You wrote:
For me, when I daven, yet use that same mouth to speak lashon hara or yell at my child- that's pure hypocrisy.

...

Why does the tznius hypocrisy bother you more than any of the other double standards you routinely see and practice?

First of all, you have no idea of tznius hypocrisy bothers OP any more than any other type of hypocrisy. Just because she posted about one thing, and people are talking about that thing, doesn't mean that's all she/we care about.

Secondly - that's not the definition of hypocrisy. Hypocrisy means deliberately putting up a false front, particularly when it comes to morality or religion.

Someone who has standards but doesn't always live up to them is what's known as "human."

Eg, davening but later yelling at your child is not hypocrisy. Joining a group dedicated to teaching positive parenting techniques, and posting there about how well positive parenting works for you, while making no effort not to yell at your child - that would be hypocrisy.
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 29 2016, 7:28 am
Look, ultimately I agree with what most people are saying to OP - you don't know that lady, just ignore her.

I just think there's a lot of deliberate naivete in some posts here. How absurd that someone would assume a person is chassidic, just because said person is wearing clothing that only chassidic Jews wear. How unfair for people to notice what others do, or to have thoughts about other people's behavior. Rolling Eyes

And the harsh criticism of OP is pretty ironic. OP noticed someone's inconsistent behavior and was frustrated by that, but said nothing to that person and even made an effort to understand her behavior = OP is bad, let's tell her how bad she is. We insult OP and tell her she's a terrible judgmental person = we are bold internet warriors.

Is criticizing people's behavior a bad thing, or a good thing? Make up your minds. At least OP didn't insult the woman to her face.
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amother
Cerulean


 

Post Fri, Jul 29 2016, 7:47 am
I was once standing on line at the super market Erev Pesach.
The lady behind me asked if I live in that OOT place all year.
I was obviously dressed tzniut, stockings, short wig, long skirt, 3/4 sleeves, etc.
I don't know how the conversation led to this, but she said to me if I lived in Brooklyn or Lakewood she would ask me if I knew of a nice tzniut girl for her son. So l told her I may know nice tzniut girls here.
She said to me, Oh no I don't want a girl from .... Because most of them would not live up to our standards of tzniut.
The lady was wearing short sleeves, short jean skirt with a front slit, no stockings, flip flops, and a baseball cap that was obviously too small to cover all her hair.
She said to me. I don't usually dress this way, it's just I'm on vacation.
What nerve, that's hypocracy.
I couldn't just shut my mouth and told her that at least if you get a girl from ... she's emet, and you'll know what your getting even on vacation.
She was insulted.
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amother
Crimson


 

Post Fri, Jul 29 2016, 8:38 am
I've been thinking about this thread and I'm wondering if the OP was feeling betrayed rather than judgemental.

One summer when I was in high school I participated in a science internship program through the NY Academy of Science. We spent 4 days a week in our assigned labs and met at the Academy every Friday for workshops. It was the first time in my life that I had spent such a significant amount of time among non-Jews and I was happy to find another frum girl in the group. It just made me feel a little more comfortable even though she was actually a stranger at first.

One Friday we went on a field trip to a local wildlife preserve. We were told ahead of time to dress appropriately, which apparently meant jeans or other long pants to protect against ticks. Well, I wasn't going to wear pants because I always wore skirts. I was comforted by the idea that at least I wouldn't be the only one. I knew that even the Muslim girl in my group would be there wearing pants because she had already worn a pair on a rainy day (as an aside, she was as shocked that I didn't wear pants as I was that she did despite wearing a head scarf). When the frum girl showed up in a skirt I had an inward sigh of relief that I wouldn't be sticking out like a sore thumb all by myself. Then she disappeared into the bathroom and came out wearing a pair of jeans and I felt so betrayed! It's not like she owed me anything, but I was hoping/expecting a partner in crime, so to speak. So I was left to explain why I was wearing a skirt with leggings underneath and she was allowed to wear pants. It was very uncomfortable for me on multiple levels.

Later that summer was the only time I rebelled against the tznius rules that I was taught at home and in school. I bought myself a couple of shirts that were tighter and had shorter sleeves than my mother would have ever allowed me to wear. And once I went out with a group of friends, and as soon as I was away from my parents I ducked into a bathroom and changed into the tight shirt. I didn't connect it at the time to my experience on the field trip, but maybe that's what subconsciously inspired me.

So I wonder if the OP saw another frum woman on vacation and thought that at least she wasn't the only one wearing skirts and long sleeves and covering her hair and not having the freedom to just relax by the pool comfortably. And maybe when she saw this woman not as covered as she expected she felt betrayed because she (OP) thought she had a comrade in arms and was disappointed.

Just my $0.02.
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amother
Cerulean


 

Post Fri, Jul 29 2016, 8:42 am
amother wrote:
I've been thinking about this thread and I'm wondering if the OP was feeling betrayed rather than judgemental.

One summer when I was in high school I participated in a science internship program through the NY Academy of Science. We spent 4 days a week in our assigned labs and met at the Academy every Friday for workshops. It was the first time in my life that I had spent such a significant amount of time among non-Jews and I was happy to find another frum girl in the group. It just made me feel a little more comfortable even though she was actually a stranger at first.

One Friday we went on a field trip to a local wildlife preserve. We were told ahead of time to dress appropriately, which apparently meant jeans or other long pants to protect against ticks. Well, I wasn't going to wear pants because I always wore skirts. I was comforted by the idea that at least I wouldn't be the only one. I knew that even the Muslim girl in my group would be there wearing pants because she had already worn a pair on a rainy day (as an aside, she was as shocked that I didn't wear pants as I was that she did despite wearing a head scarf). When the frum girl showed up in a skirt I had an inward sigh of relief that I wouldn't be sticking out like a sore thumb all by myself. Then she disappeared into the bathroom and came out wearing a pair of jeans and I felt so betrayed! It's not like she owed me anything, but I was hoping/expecting a partner in crime, so to speak. So I was left to explain why I was wearing a skirt with leggings underneath and she was allowed to wear pants. It was very uncomfortable for me on multiple levels.

Later that summer was the only time I rebelled against the tznius rules that I was taught at home and in school. I bought myself a couple of shirts that were tighter and had shorter sleeves than my mother would have ever allowed me to wear. And once I went out with a group of friends, and as soon as I was away from my parents I ducked into a bathroom and changed into the tight shirt. I didn't connect it at the time to my experience on the field trip, but maybe that's what subconsciously inspired me.

So I wonder if the OP saw another frum woman on vacation and thought that at least she wasn't the only one wearing skirts and long sleeves and covering her hair and not having the freedom to just relax by the pool comfortably. And maybe when she saw this woman not as covered as she expected she felt betrayed because she (OP) thought she had a comrade in arms and was disappointed.

Just my $0.02.


Thank you for having DLKZ, and for sharing.
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shacn




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 29 2016, 9:27 am
I did not read through the 9 pages of this thread but I will add a little story.

I was brought up MO, I wore tanks and shorts, fully kept Shabbat and fully kept kosher. Went to movies and listened to whatever music I want (I still do) Went to seminary and really grew a lot there.

I go away on pesach each year with my family before I was married, and there were ALWAYS at least 25-30 people from Brooklyn (yes I know for sure) who would be sitting by the pool and beach in a mixed environment and kid you not they were wearing string bikinis and tichels. By the Seders they would come down in their high neck shells and tights and sheitels. I'm not judging, I let God do that. But all those years before seminary I was so naive and totally thought that was ok. I'm like that's so cool, they can dress down by te pool and be so normal! But now that I'm out of seminary for many years and learned a lot since then. No that is not ok, but it's Gds world I'll let Him do His job!

This past year I was in Israel for pesach and I was on the tram in Jerusalem and I saw a bunch of seminary girls- a BY one, covered from collar bone to toe. One hour later I see them sitting out by the same pool as my family and I were in shorts and tank tops.

Now I'm not saying look at me I'm so frum. I have much to work on. But I would never play a double standard roll. I guess vacation means a vacation from God. Not in my book.
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amother
Honeydew


 

Post Fri, Jul 29 2016, 9:42 am
amother wrote:
I'm a chassidish woman from williamsburg. I recently traveled to cancun and Wore a bathing while swimming in the pool with my husband and whoever else wanted to join. Just because I live my day to day life a certain way doesn't mean that I agree with all of its standards. There are so many other reasons one would choose to live a chassidish lifestyle. I don't owe you an explanation.
And if you'd truly be so pious you would not stay with your husband and son in a room directly facing a pool then have the nerve to complain about how a woman walks around in front of them.


Lol! I was recently in cancan too! You're probably the couple my husband and family would be confused about! I find it extremely fake as would many Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
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debbie321




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 29 2016, 9:56 am
I am no way near perfect,amd find myself judging people the same way. even thougj everyone has their way of life,I always feel the people who know better,from the way they eere raised,just shouldnt! then I read something that thought was appropriate. dont know if anyone read the new book adorned with dignity, but in day 30,there is a chapter on viewing others who are not performing the mitzva properly.(this book is about emunah andcovering hair). it talks about what u should do when u see someone not covering their hair properly. do u judge(like I do/did) or what?
it says that besides for being 1 of the final battles before mashiach, women who dont fully cover their hair might suffer from self esteem issues, anf have a need to inprove extrnal appearance thru hair covering.

the most important part was in shamayim are 2 main roads. 1 is road of compassion and road of judgement. if u think positively on someone, u can go on road of compassion,where u get many brachos, and yeshuos. plus,when u think positively on these people, ur thoughys invoke positive frelings in them,which inspires them to change.
the other road is the road of judgement,where all tzaros are found
I on no way mean to sound preachy,as I am bothered when I see poepls swimming in bathingsuits in public places,especially when they do know better. im also not a major frumi who reads this stuff to preach to others. but found this helpful in viewing other people and not being bothered by them
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return2You




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 29 2016, 10:28 am
ora_43 wrote:
First of all, you have no idea of tznius hypocrisy bothers OP any more than any other type of hypocrisy. Just because she posted about one thing, and people are talking about that thing, doesn't mean that's all she/we care about.

Secondly - that's not the definition of hypocrisy. Hypocrisy means deliberately putting up a false front, particularly when it comes to morality or religion.

Someone who has standards but doesn't always live up to them is what's known as "human."

Eg, davening but later yelling at your child is not hypocrisy. Joining a group dedicated to teaching positive parenting techniques, and posting there about how well positive parenting works for you, while making no effort not to yell at your child - that would be hypocrisy.


I don't agree.

Talk to secular people. They look at religious people abusing the system as hypocrites. If you're so religious, why are you not reporting taxes?

If you consider yourself religious how can you let your kids leave snack wrappers all over the park?
How do you call yourself religious if you gossip about your neighbor, talk down to your housekeeper, etc,

FYI yiddishkeit encompasses a lot more than just tznius and if we're going to present ourselves as frum people, were going to be held to higher standards IN EVERY SINGLE AREA.

No judgement. We're all human.


If the definition of hypocrisy means deliberately putting up a false front then we're all guilty of doing that in some area of our life.

That is called being human.

And the point of my post was for the Op to ask herself why the other woman's' behavior bothered her so much.
She didn't vent about a different form of hypocrisy. She vented about this. Maybe she should ask herself why.
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return2You




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 29 2016, 10:34 am
[b]
ora_43 wrote:
First of all, you have no idea of tznius hypocrisy bothers OP any more than any other type of hypocrisy. Just because she posted about one thing, and people are talking about that thing, doesn't mean that's all she/we care about.[/b]

Secondly - that's not the definition of hypocrisy. Hypocrisy means deliberately putting up a false front, particularly when it comes to morality or religion.

Someone who has standards but doesn't always live up to them is what's known as "human."

Eg, davening but later yelling at your child is not hypocrisy. Joining a group dedicated to teaching positive parenting techniques, and posting there about how well positive parenting works for you, while making no effort not to yell at your child - that would be hypocrisy.


Also, you are taking this way too personally. I was responding to the op, not you. I appologize if I hit a raw nerve.
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out-of-towner




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 29 2016, 10:38 am
return2You wrote:
I don't agree.

Talk to secular people. They look at religious people abusing the system as hypocrites. If you're so religious, why are you not reporting taxes?

If you consider yourself religious how can you let your kids leave snack wrappers all over the park?
How do you call yourself religious if you gossip about your neighbor, talk down to your housekeeper, etc,

FYI yiddishkeit encompasses a lot more than just tznius and if we're going to present ourselves as frum people, were going to be held to higher standards IN EVERY SINGLE AREA.

No judgement. We're all human.


If the definition of hypocrisy means deliberately putting up a false front then we're all guilty of doing that in some area of our life.

That is called being human.

And the point of my post was for the Op to ask herself why the other woman's' behavior bothered her so much.
She didn't vent about a different form of hypocrisy. She vented about this. Maybe she should ask herself why.


I agree with you that secular people talk about religious people abusing the system, but kid yourself, they also notice descrepencies in dress as well. For example, the wife of a well-respected Rabbi in my in-laws life does not dress the way that a Rabbi's wife should, and the women in my family have no respect for her, because they see the double standard. They themselves don't keep the Halachos of Tznius, but they also know that someone who supposedly represents the sect of Yiddishkeit that this Rabbi represents should have higher standards.

RE the bolded, I completely agree with you, and this is the thing that bothers me about Frum people who dress the dress and walk the walk, but act with a complete lack of Middos and are rude to everyone. It's sad. And in truth, if I was a non-Jew in a predomiatly Frum community, I probably would also have a bad attitiude towards Yidden.


And this makes me extremely sad!
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HonesttoGod




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 29 2016, 10:44 am
And this is why I do not like vacationing with other Jewish people - because it leads to a 9 page discussion on here whether I did or didn't do something that someone else would or wouldn't do.

Is it really so hard to stay out of someone else's life?!
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return2You




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 29 2016, 10:47 am
out-of-towner wrote:
I agree with you that secular people talk about religious people abusing the system, but kid yourself, they also notice descrepencies in dress as well. For example, the wife of a well-respected Rabbi in my in-laws life does not dress the way that a Rabbi's wife should, and the women in my family have no respect for her, because they see the double standard. They themselves don't keep the Halachos of Tznius, but they also know that someone who supposedly represents the sect of Yiddishkeit that this Rabbi represents should have higher standards.

RE the bolded, I completely agree with you, and this is the thing that bothers me about Frum people who dress the dress and walk the walk, but act with a complete lack of Middos and are rude to everyone. It's sad. And in truth, if I was a non-Jew in a predomiatly Frum community, I probably would also have a bad attitiude towards Yidden.


And this makes me extremely sad!


I hear you.

And this is totally off topic but since we're talking about judgement... I have a special needs child who doesn't look different on the outside. So when I go to the park and he throws a tantrum, makes a mess, or picks on another child I get plenty of judgy stares. When I have to publicly parent him in a wAy that may seem harsh, I'm also judged. When I lose my temper on him, I'm judged too...

Nobody knows my circumstances. Nobody knows the op's circumstances. Nobody k owns the woman with the short sleeves circumstances.

Can we all just stop judging each other and accept ourselves as human?!!
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strawberry cola




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 29 2016, 12:12 pm
Honeydew, there is a vast difference between "different reasons for choosing a chassidic lifestyle" and keeping the halacha. We are not talking about types of headcovering or the mesorah of payos or a shtreimel- mixed swimming is assur min Hatorah. Hashem and His Torah are everywhere, even in Cancun.

And to the person who wrote about Jews who are makpid on certain things but have terrible middos- of course there are people who dont represent the best of us but honestly- I dont think anyone is like the majority of us when it comes to midos. My friend asked a non-Jew on the train if she could please use his cellphone to make an urgent call (hers was suddenly not working) and he looked at her as though she was nuts and totally out of line. To us, letting someone (including a non-Jew) use our phone would be so natural. As are doing chessed, being polite, patient and compassionate.
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flowerpower




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 29 2016, 12:15 pm
People don't know how to differentiate between halacha and mesora. For them taking off One of their head coverings on vacation is same as swimming naked in a mixed pool while eating none- kosher.
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cnc




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 29 2016, 12:18 pm
flowerpower wrote:
People don't know how to differentiate between halacha and mesora. For them taking off One of their head coverings on vacation is same as swimming naked in a mixed pool while eating none- kosher.


I was thinking the same thing....
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amother
Lime


 

Post Fri, Jul 29 2016, 12:19 pm
Some people don't believe in the absolute truth of the frum lifestyle yet want to be a part of the community. So they dress to orthodox standards while in town and do otherwise while on vacation. It's not because they think G-d allows less while on vacation. It's purely a cultural/conformity thing.
I don't know if that's hypocrisy. Similar to a lawyer who would wear a suit to court but swimwear at the beach.
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Maya




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 29 2016, 12:21 pm
flowerpower wrote:
People don't know how to differentiate between halacha and mesora. For them taking off One of their head coverings on vacation is same as swimming naked in a mixed pool while eating none- kosher.

I never bought this line of reasoning.
Really, you think these people don't know the difference between a hat on a sheitel and mixed swimming and non kosher food? What are they, four?
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flowerpower




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 29 2016, 12:27 pm
Yes. I really believe that. They are naive and never learnt/ were taught the difference.
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amother
Papaya


 

Post Fri, Jul 29 2016, 12:34 pm
Maya wrote:
I never bought this line of reasoning.
Really, you think these people don't know the difference between a hat on a sheitel and mixed swimming and non kosher food? What are they, four?


There are a lot of things people think are halacha which are actually minhag or chumra, and vice versa. I've seen it plenty of times.

If women aren't taught to learn from the sources, and don't learn from the sources themselves, and don't learn on their own after 12th grade, how should they know?

I went to a seminary where we learned everything straight from the sources, as well as learning differences in opinion/machlokes/controversial topics in depth, and I was shocked. Time and time again. Things we had been taught as outright halacha turned out to be quite controversial, and all the practices more 'modern' people did that our teachers trashed turned out to be legitimate opinions and approaches. So many things in my elementary and high school were taught in such a distorted fashion.

Ignorant teachers, ignorant students who become ignorant teachers, and the cycle continues...
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