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Do people really tip at camp?!
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dina22




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 23 2016, 4:36 pm
watergirl wrote:
Do you have kids? If so, how do you feel when the whole summer your kid complains that his counselor is mean, plays on his phone, ignores them? Did they earn their tip? My son's morah/counselor didnt call once the whole summer. Not a hi or a smile. He lost things at camp (that happens, I know) and again, no phone call.

BTW, I had youth core counselors who did not get paid for a few hours a day and a whole week in the end. But they DID get chessed hours/volunteer hours for that time, which NYC requires anyways, so they didnt come out empty handed.


I do have kids b"h, and interestingly enough I live in Chicago now and I tipped the couselors! Not just a New York thing to try to help hard working underpaid kids out!
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wiki




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 23 2016, 4:40 pm
I grew up OOT, and when I worked at a day camp, I had no expectation of receiving tips--and did not receive any. It wasn't on the radar screen at all. I was happy with the pay that I was receiving, even though it was way less than minimum wage. I accepted that in-the-community camps paid a few hundred dollars each month, and that was that. Everyone who worked in a camp was paid like that--way less than an adult would make, but from a kid's perspective, way more than not working at all!

In sleepaway camp, counselors got tips, and this made sense. They got camp food and lodging free of charge, but did not get paid other than tips. In this case, tipping was a very reasonable system.

This year was the first year that my child was in day-camp (in NY), and I was surprised that we were expected to tip. Camp was pretty affordable, but I had assumed that even at this price they could afford to pay the teenagers reasonably. Maybe teenagers expect more money these days (and in NY) than they did when I was a kid OOT.

Whatever the case, we winced and paid up. The counselors do deserve it. (But why can't they just get it straight from camp? I think there's a level of chutzpah in hidden fees that masquerade as "show your hakaras hatov, please!")

If you don't want to tip, go ahead and don't! If the camp really wanted the counselors to receive this pay, they should have included it in the official fees. Consider giving a single rose and a handwritten card. (At the end of preschool this year, I gave double thank-you bonuses to the morahs, and I also gave a card and rose to an occasional assistant in the class. This occasional assistant was the one who gushed her appreciation the most! And her gift only cost 2 or 3 bucks compared to the monetary bonuses! While money is great, a nice token of appreciation gets the message across very well too.)
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amother
Green


 

Post Tue, Aug 23 2016, 4:48 pm
singleagain wrote:
for everyone who is appalled at the concept of tips, are you also appalled at the idea of buying chanukka presents and mishloach manot for therapists and house cleaners?

what's the difference there?


Op here.
Firstly thanks for all the responses. I didn't mean to start a whole thing, my real question was if I'd stick out if I didn't pay, and if it was worse to give a little than not at all.

Secondly, I am a very well liked teacher (anonymous here, so no modesty) at a mainstream brooklyn school. I get maybe one chanukah gift (a candy dish or the like), 1-2 Mish loach manos and maybe one end of the year gift.

So when people come on imamother talking about all the tips and gifts during the school year, I'm appalled at that also. Tuition is soooooooo high. We all struggle so much.

Who's making this stuff up and setting the norms? Is it the wealthy mothers who don't work and have lots of spare money to toss around? Are they the ones raising the bar and instituting these oh-so-nice methods of "hakaras hatov"??

Again, to the posters talking about stiffing teenagers. No, I wouldn't be. The camps are stiffing them. If they get some youth Corp and the camp chooses not to further compensate them, that should be on the camp. Camp is a necessity for working parents. I pay hefty camp fees, plus extras for trips and tshirts. No where in registering my kids was I told that a few hundred dollars will be expected later.

Regardless, I gave $25 for the girls' main morahs, 10 for each jc. I skipped the bus moniter and driver and whoever else I was "supposed" to shell out money to. The boys don't end for a few more days, so I have time to think about that. What do yiu think is the minimum that's not disgraceful for a rebbe?
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amother
Wine


 

Post Tue, Aug 23 2016, 5:03 pm
amother wrote:
Op here.
Firstly thanks for all the responses. I didn't mean to start a whole thing, my real question was if I'd stick out if I didn't pay, and if it was worse to give a little than not at all.

Secondly, I am a very well liked teacher (anonymous here, so no modesty) at a mainstream brooklyn school. I get maybe one chanukah gift (a candy dish or the like), 1-2 Mish loach manos and maybe one end of the year gift.

So when people come on imamother talking about all the tips and gifts during the school year, I'm appalled at that also. Tuition is soooooooo high. We all struggle so much.

Who's making this stuff up and setting the norms? Is it the wealthy mothers who don't work and have lots of spare money to toss around? Are they the ones raising the bar and instituting these oh-so-nice methods of "hakaras hatov"??

Again, to the posters talking about stiffing teenagers. No, I wouldn't be. The camps are stiffing them. If they get some youth Corp and the camp chooses not to further compensate them, that should be on the camp. Camp is a necessity for working parents. I pay hefty camp fees, plus extras for trips and tshirts. No where in registering my kids was I told that a few hundred dollars will be expected later.

Regardless, I gave $25 for the girls' main morahs, 10 for each jc. I skipped the bus moniter and driver and whoever else I was "supposed" to shell out money to. The boys don't end for a few more days, so I have time to think about that. What do yiu think is the minimum that's not disgraceful for a rebbe?


You live in NY, maybe the counselors are getting Youth Corp. In other areas, they are not. You can rationalize all you want that it's the camp stiffing the teenagers, but that rational only works for the 1st year. In theory we all agree that the camps should pay their counselors better, but they don't. You now know this going forward, so if you choose not to tip the counselors next year, you are the one stiffing them as well. The reality is that the camp would raise the cost significantly if they were to institute a no tipping policy, and raise the counselors' salaries to more than the $3 an hour they're getting, if they're lucky. Summers can be very expensive, but why should the counselors be the ones to lose out? I would sooner ask the camp if there was anyway they would give me a break than not to tip the counselor something.
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hesha




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 23 2016, 5:23 pm
I totally agree that tipping can get too expensive and is not fair burden to place on parents who struggle to pay the tuition, forget extras. I would get a really affordable gift (like a mug from the dollar store filled with candy and cellophane wrapped, and write a note.) its perfectly fine. the fact that somehow it became acceptable to pay counselors peanuts doesn't mean its now up to the rest of us to fill in the gap. My two cents
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JAWSCIENCE




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 23 2016, 5:58 pm
Camps, and schools, really should let you know what the tipping/teacher gift etc. schedule will be when you sign up. That way if you dont like it - go elsewhere.

How do you know those counsellors are getting youth core? Not every camp does this. You should Inquire before assuming. Many counsellors make very little and in some areas tipping them is like tipping a waiter. If the service was truly a disaster you can tip less but it is expected that you will tip and not doing so is borderline stealing. It's such a societal norm in those places and the counsellors are only taking the job because they will get tipped.

When I worked in overnight camp it was known That there was a tip schedule. Junior counsellors were not paid by the camp at all. Senior counsellors made very little and no it was not like going to camp for free. We were worked crazy hard by the administration and those trips we got to go on? We spent the entire time making sure no kids got lost! Or staying behind with The kids too afraid to go on The rides. Plus the many bathroom trips. In that camp a counsellor that was not tipped would feel terrible. Iit was an expensive camp but it was known that tips were expected and people who did not want to pay them should not send there rather than tell some teen "you take it up with the camp I paid them enough"

I do not know what it is like in your area to tell you if it is a cultural norm since I do not know where you live.

If you aren't going to tip or if you are going to tip less please also include a note so that the counsellor does not feel like she is being tipped less because she did a bad job ( unless she actually did a bad job!)

I was not pleased when my daughters camp surprised us with tipping fees this year but I loved her counsellor so I tipped. I would not necessarily tip all those extra people I never met or heard of.
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amother
Burlywood


 

Post Tue, Aug 23 2016, 6:08 pm
amother wrote:
Im shocked there's a person who claims to have never even heard of the concept of tipping counselors. Where did you grow up??? What area of the world do you live in???


I live in the US., in neither NY or NJ. When my kids went to camp the counselors made minimum wage that was the law. I never heard of tipping or of backyard camps for that matter until I came to Ima.
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watergirl




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 23 2016, 6:31 pm
amother wrote:
I live in the US., in neither NY or NJ. When my kids went to camp the counselors made minimum wage that was the law. I never heard of tipping or of backyard camps for that matter until I came to Ima.

You must live in Texas or Nebraska (according to some).
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gold21




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 23 2016, 6:33 pm
I tip the teenagers, not the adults
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amother
Burlywood


 

Post Tue, Aug 23 2016, 6:39 pm
watergirl wrote:
You must live in Texas or Nebraska (according to some).


Whew Is tipping illegal there?
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ra_mom




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 23 2016, 6:40 pm
gold21 wrote:
I tip the teenagers, not the adults

Preschool DD had a very involved adult counselor and very involved teen junior counselor this year. Should I really tip one over the other? Is this decision based on the difference in paycheck that they receive?
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gold21




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 23 2016, 6:59 pm
ra_mom wrote:
Preschool DD had a very involved adult counselor and very involved teen junior counselor this year. Should I really tip one over the other? Is this decision based on the difference in paycheck that they receive?


My preschool age child didnt go to real camp, she went to her morah from the school year for daycamp.

I tipped her.

I meant, in real camp I don't tip- head staff, head lifeguard, bus driver, etc. I tip the actual counselors. Otherwise it gets too expensive.
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notshanarishona




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 23 2016, 7:53 pm
ra_mom wrote:
Preschool DD had a very involved adult counselor and very involved teen junior counselor this year. Should I really tip one over the other? Is this decision based on the difference in paycheck that they receive?


Generally the adult counselors are getting paid 3-4 times as much as the teen counselors so they are not getting stiffed if you don't tip.
For an adult, I would only tip f they went above and beyond.
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amother
Goldenrod


 

Post Tue, Aug 23 2016, 8:57 pm
If teens refuse to work for so little then the camps would be forced to pay Them more. And no I don't think camp fees would go up so much because camps are a profit and they are charging now the most they think they can. Camp is not like school where you have to send and parents have a bigger choice where they want to go so if camp raises their fees too much parents will go elsewhere.
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ra_mom




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 23 2016, 9:12 pm
gold21 wrote:
My preschool age child didnt go to real camp, she went to her morah from the school year for daycamp.

I tipped her.

I meant, in real camp I don't tip- head staff, head lifeguard, bus driver, etc. I tip the actual counselors. Otherwise it gets too expensive.
Thanks! I wouldn't dream of tipping the head staff, lifeguard, but I give a very small tip to the bus driver since they suggest that we do ($5 per half).
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ra_mom




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 23 2016, 9:13 pm
notshanarishona wrote:
Generally the adult counselors are getting paid 3-4 times as much as the teen counselors so they are not getting stiffed if you don't tip.
For an adult, I would only tip f they went above and beyond.

Maybe I should tip them equally instead of tipping the adult counselor more and the teen counselor less as the camp suggested.
Thanks for pointing this out!
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momX4




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 24 2016, 12:25 am
ra_mom wrote:
Maybe I should tip them equally instead of tipping the adult counselor more and the teen counselor less as the camp suggested.
Thanks for pointing this out!


Thats exactly what I do. My boys tell me that the JCs are the ones that play the sports with them, not the counselors.
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amother
Natural


 

Post Wed, Aug 24 2016, 12:33 am
I worked in a day camp this summer. I did as a teen also but that was in the ice age. It's a bungalow colony camp so there may be some differences from other types but I think the differences are probably minor.

On the tip list I appear as "morah." I imagine many parents will share your rationale - she's getting her kids in camp free, getting paid more than counselors, etc, so why tip. I understand that and I don't expect to get the full "suggested" tips. But there are some things you should probably know:
1. Kids in camp free is a good perk but if I didn't take this job I could have kept them home got the same price. Doing this with kids in tow is actually a pretty big headache. They have exact out the same schedule as me so I never get any breaks. Plus it leaves me very very stuck if my kids are not doing well here (I'm not paid enough to send them elsewhere...) So this has been a huge commitment and hassle for me that I'm not sure counts as "well her kids get in free so isn't that the same as full pay."
2. Adult jobs in camps tend to be quite intense. "Head staff" doesn't mean you sit around watching the teens do all the work. (When your staff is teens they need some counselor-ing themselves...) add that intensity to point 1 above, it's no picnic.
3. The tip sheet says morah and you're thinking well why am I paying so much for 20 minutes of morah time each day? First of all, counselors basically show up to activities that are already planned. I plan my own lessons and put a lot of heart into it. So it's not just the one period a day. You can still say well that's expected and you're being paid enough for that. But as I started to say above, any adult staff in camp is automatically doing more. Morah often ends up being called into mommy duty as the only actual mommy around at many times and locations. Your 16 year old counselor is only wiping your 4 year old's poop if she absolutely has no other option (i.e.I'm out sick. Which happened exactly once. I was under a lot of pressure not to be out sick because a shortage of actual adults could be a disaster. See points 1 and 2...) I do diapers. I do booboos. I do snack arrangements. I do a lot of coordinating and liasing as the only one in the vicinity authorized to use a cell phone during camp hours. I've also pinch-hit when a counselor was out sick or overwhelmed or whatever. The tip sheet says morah but I also make shidduchim for list sweatshirts, caps, etc.
4. Yes I do get paid more than the counselors. I think the counselors should get paid more too. But let's think in adult terms please - I also need to pay for my food and rent which your average teen doesn't. And I didn't take this job because my regular job pays great either. My salary is what it is and I don't need to be your charity case but don't delude yourself into thinking the adults are living in luxury off your camp fees. PS the head counselor and director working their brains and bottoms off are also salaried employees; if there's profit in the camp it doesn't belong to any of us in particular.

I'm a mom and a human and most of all an imamother member so if you can't spring a tip then I totally understand. But don't think it's because I didn't earn one and am overpaid. And if by some miracle you actually noticed the great job I'm doing, a gesture of recognition would be very gratifying even if not monetary. It's been a great but very intense and challenging summer. I love your kids and will miss them. I hope you realize even that, from both me and the counselors, is worth more than just turning your back and walking out on the last day k-thx-bye.

(Opinion on counselor tips coming later, but probably has been said already by others. I only read first and last page. After all I have to be up and ready to supervise a slew of trip and end of year logistics that "morah" doesn't call to mind at all)
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amother
Natural


 

Post Thu, Aug 25 2016, 12:04 am
"Morah" here again on behalf of my counselors. My tips that I receive are basically getting forwarded straight to my kids' counselors. I'm going to be cutting corners in other areas instead of this one.

I feel bad for anyone who had no idea about tips. The general idea has been pretty universal in my experience.

I was very surprised to hear how little the counselors I work with were being paid. Actually when I was told, I assumed it was per month and thought it decent - later I found out that number was for the whole summer and my jaw dropped that anyone was willing to work for that. The promise of tips was definitely a factor.

I believe camps should pay them more fairly but this is after the fact, with that being out of our control at least for the current year.

They cannot just vote with their feet. The supply of available, let alone attractive jobs, is far smaller than the supply of teens looking for summer jobs. I have seen kids who were not interested in childcare look for summer jobs, and it was nearly impossible. As for those interested in childcare, there are a limited number of camp positions, and only a small fraction of those is going to be either entertaining or decently paying. These kids are looking for a productive way to spend their summer. They hope for some spending money for the year, maybe start saving for the future. I saved everything I made as a counselor and it saved me from falling into debt as a young married with babies. The fact that they're young and looking for a way to keep busy is not a reason to not pay them fairly.

Remember that thread about saying thank you to the bus driver or something? Someone thought that's not needed because they're only doing their job? And the rest of us yelled her down saying that a thanks is in order anyway. Well if "thanks" is in order for a short bus ride or bagging groceries, then what's the equivalent for someone who spent a month or two caring for your kids?

As both a parent and staff,I get an interesting perspective. I hear parents complain a lot and fully realize that if I were in their shoes is probably do the same. But I also see behind the scenes which is a different picture. They say things like "we're paying blah blah do why aren't we getting yada yada" which has not very much to do with the running of a camp. It's hard to think of examples that wouldn't take too long to explain. But we all really appreciate the parents who are generally positive. So please don't say "my kid's counselor doesn't deserve a tip because she was insufficient in this particular way." She tried her best at her job much like you do. If you're not a perfect parent to your few kids, don't expect a teenager to be a perfect parent to 10 kids at once all the time. If your kid came home with the wrong water bottle and a runny nose, don't say "omg where was the counselor why aren't they taking care of things." Maybe your kid was so insistent that the purple water bottle was his that the counselor didn't want to fight it (and if they did then you'd be asking why your kid came home crying that the counselor was mean. We can't win.)

Finally, there's a motivation aspect. I think tipping is a bit of an investment. Sure I am very unlikely to have the same counselors next year, though you never know especially with a community operation. But if the general climate of both the profession in general and the specific camp is that parents reward counselors, the counselors will feel more motivated to give that extra push of care into their work with the kids. Your kids. There's this general sense of "is worth going the extra mile because that's where our tips will be coming from." You want to be idealistic go ahead - some counselors are too. But I'm talking reality.

I tip because I think it's the right thing to do. There were some years I couldn't do the full suggested amount but I always stretch myself to give something and it always comes with a proper note. The staff worked hard, even though it's their job appreciation is so important especially for these young, developing people. They're also getting shortchanged by the camp so even if I disagree with that in principle, after that I'm not going to be the one to shortchange them even more. If it's not right for the camp to do, then it wouldn't be right for me to do either. Maybe it shouldn't be my job in the first place but nobody asked me so I deal with reality.
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amother
Bronze


 

Post Thu, Aug 25 2016, 12:14 am
silly question related to tipping- Must it be cash? or can I give a check? Is it weird to give a check for such a small amount (some $8, some $10..)?

I don't really know what's the norm, but I don't have cash on me and the last day of camp is tomorow..
Thanks!
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