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Tricking School into Accepting Unvaxxed Kids
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amother
Coffee


 

Post Wed, Aug 24 2016, 9:14 pm
[quote="ahfc"]
Quote:


Actually, private schools do not need to accept religious exemptions. there are only a few things such as gender and race that a private school is federally required to abide by under discrimination law. Otherwise you are free to send your child to public school Smile I actually saw that the public school system in California is not allowing religious exemptions. This is probably because the ratio of unvaccinated kids in Calfornia schools is now a safety risk to everyone. Which is what happens when people selfishly depend on everyone else getting vaccinated to protect their unvaccinated kids.

People aren't "selfishly" depending on anyone for anything. They weigh the risks/benefits ratio and do what they see as best for their health which is what the torah commands. Just because 90% of the school believes otherwise doesn't make anti vaxxers wrong. Maybe, just maybe, they are in fact smart for doing their research. I have life long complications of a vaccine that I was never at risk for getting anyway (because it is an std, not because it was erradicated) and I will never vaccinate my child unnecessarily. Ironically, I would be ok giving some, but in order to claim a religious exemption it's all or nothing so since I wont give hep B I can't give any in order to keep up my religious exemption and keep my child in school.
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amother
Navy


 

Post Wed, Aug 24 2016, 9:22 pm
Maya wrote:
I stand by my stupid statement; Hashem invented vaccines for you to use, not rely just on the misguided notion of emunah without hishtadlus.
.


Hashem invented guns. Shall I use it?
Hashem invented lawyers for a reason...good and evil are created in balanced quantities...
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amother
Coffee


 

Post Wed, Aug 24 2016, 9:29 pm
miami85 wrote:
It may be legally fair, however it stresses an already stretched budget of these institutions which affects tuitions of the rest of the student body which is morally and ethically unfair.

To the other poster, If you have medical or family history of reactions, then that is a MEDICAL reason, not a "religious" reason. MOST healthy individuals have NO reaction to the vaccines and it in GENERAL does much more good than harm. While the opposite is playing with fire.

That's the schools problem if they choose to break the law.
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LittleDucky




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 24 2016, 9:36 pm
amother wrote:
Totally legal. It is illegal to not accept a child solely because they are not vaxxed.


Depends on where you live.
CA passed a law saying you must vax even in private schools (unless medically exempted)? I think other states might have as well.
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amother
Forestgreen


 

Post Wed, Aug 24 2016, 9:42 pm
amother wrote:
If 90 something % of the parent body in a jewish only school vaccinate their kids then how is it a religious exemption?


Because the religious exemption is based on YOUR religious belief and in order to qualify, you need to prove you have one. They are not concerned about what most Jews, Christians, or Muslims do. Do you think the government officials who passed the law are stupid? Do you think they don't realize that most Jews do vaccinate? Yet, there still exists the religious exemption in the majority of the states in the US.
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amother
Forestgreen


 

Post Wed, Aug 24 2016, 9:43 pm
LittleDucky wrote:
Depends on where you live.
CA passed a law saying you must vax even in private schools (unless medically exempted)? I think other states might have as well.


There are 3 states in the US that no longer accept the religious exemption.CA is the most recent.
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amother
Papaya


 

Post Wed, Aug 24 2016, 9:58 pm
amother wrote:
People aren't "selfishly" depending on anyone for anything. They weigh the risks/benefits ratio and do what they see as best for their health which is what the torah commands. Just because 90% of the school believes otherwise doesn't make anti vaxxers wrong. Maybe, just maybe, they are in fact smart for doing their research. I have life long complications of a vaccine that I was never at risk for getting anyway (because it is an std, not because it was erradicated) and I will never vaccinate my child unnecessarily. Ironically, I would be ok giving some, but in order to claim a religious exemption it's all or nothing so since I wont give hep B I can't give any in order to keep up my religious exemption and keep my child in school.


What disease do you have and how do you know it's from the hep b vaccine?
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LittleDucky




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 24 2016, 9:59 pm
And I wonder if the schools can kick out students who don't vaccinate by saying (and having it written down in policy that the parents get, like with various other rules they may have as part of basic policy like their standards for tv, internet, tzniyus and out of school activities) that:
"vaccination is a part of our religious beliefs in that we believe in "Lo taamod al dam reyecha" and "unishmartem" ... And anyone who does not follow this ideal for non medical reasons cannot be seen as fitting in with the religious ideals of the school."
And face similar consequences as if they found a kid having an unmonitored Facebook account, commingling with the opposite gender and binge watching television shows. Because both types of students may impact and "contaminate" the school/other students. One spiritually and one medically/physically.
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amother
Coffee


 

Post Wed, Aug 24 2016, 10:02 pm
LittleDucky wrote:
And I wonder if the schools can kick out students who don't vaccinate by saying (and having it written down in policy that the parents get, like with various other rules they may have as part of basic policy like their standards for tv, internet, tzniyus and out of school activities) that:
"vaccination is a part of our religious beliefs in that we believe in "Lo taamod al dam reyecha" and "unishmartem" ... And anyone who does not follow this ideal for non medical reasons cannot be seen as fitting in with the religious ideals of the school."
And face similar consequences as if they found a kid having an unmonitored Facebook account, commingling with the opposite gender and binge watching television shows. Because both types of students may impact and "contaminate" the school/other students. One spiritually and one medically/physically.

In some states they can't have that rule if they are accepting government funding. Besides, they wont contaminate anyone who believes they are immune from vaccines.

And don't start the argument it's for those who can't get vaccinated. Regardless of the reason, if unvaccinated were to cause disease it doesn't matter why they were unvaccinated. All that matters is that they aren't vaccinated. Regardless, people who are vaccinated get diseases and pass them along. So you can't really point it back to the anti vaxxers.
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amother
Forestgreen


 

Post Wed, Aug 24 2016, 10:14 pm
LittleDucky wrote:
And I wonder if the schools can kick out students who don't vaccinate by saying (and having it written down in policy that the parents get, like with various other rules they may have as part of basic policy like their standards for tv, internet, tzniyus and out of school activities) that:
"vaccination is a part of our religious beliefs in that we believe in "Lo taamod al dam reyecha" and "unishmartem" ... And anyone who does not follow this ideal for non medical reasons cannot be seen as fitting in with the religious ideals of the school."
And face similar consequences as if they found a kid having an unmonitored Facebook account, commingling with the opposite gender and binge watching television shows. Because both types of students may impact and "contaminate" the school/other students. One spiritually and one medically/physically.


If they could, they would.
Let me know if you see it in any school manual.
Let me know if you find a school manual that says anywhere in it the words, "Our school does not accept religious exemptions". Now why wouldn't they write that upfront?
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LittleDucky




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 24 2016, 10:54 pm
amother wrote:
In some states they can't have that rule if they are accepting government funding. Besides, they wont contaminate anyone who believes they are immune from vaccines.

And don't start the argument it's for those who can't get vaccinated. Regardless of the reason, if unvaccinated were to cause disease it doesn't matter why they were unvaccinated. All that matters is that they aren't vaccinated. Regardless, people who are vaccinated get diseases and pass them along. So you can't really point it back to the anti vaxxers.


You totally don't understand the point and the science. Not every vaccine takes. That's why we have herd immunity- to help protect those and the ones who can't get vaccinated. I know an awful lot of people who physically can't get them- chemo, autoimmune disorders, medications, actually allergies (flu vaccine has egg for example). But when people who can do not get vaccinated, then it puts everyone at risk.
Just go and make your own schools. No vaxxers allowed. But stay away from my friend on chemo, the kid who had an organ transplant, and the kid who if she gets a cold it means a PICU stay.
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amother
Violet


 

Post Wed, Aug 24 2016, 11:13 pm
amother wrote:
You're totally right. Your many hours of googling and listening to other people's stories make you FAR more informed than doctors and scientists whose lives are devoted to this stuff. 🙄


Oh no don't tell me you just made an aveirah. You stated a lashon hara on me. For your information no I didn't just google like you I am actually a registered nurse with four years of university education, who read and owns 50 page report written and signed by rav Shlomo Kanievski and consigned by his bro rav Chaim Kanievski who paskened that schools cannot reject unvaxed kids since there are risks involved. I am also a mother who experienced having a child go through SEVERE vaccine side effect at age of 3 and I am also a friend to someone whose both kids had vaccine injuries and I am also a niece to a dead aunt who died at age of 20 due to anaphylaxis to a shot. Don't you dare talk back to antivax mom accusing her of basing her decision solemnly on Google.
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amother
Aqua


 

Post Wed, Aug 24 2016, 11:23 pm
amother wrote:
Because the religious exemption is based on YOUR religious belief and in order to qualify, you need to prove you have one. They are not concerned about what most Jews, Christians, or Muslims do. Do you think the government officials who passed the law are stupid? Do you think they don't realize that most Jews do vaccinate? Yet, there still exists the religious exemption in the majority of the states in the US.


This is what I don't understand.

People ask LOR for input in all kinds of things because there is a recognition that Judaism is not a touchy feely religion where one makes it up as one goes along.

How can an individual have a religious belief that is not that of the religious leader they choose to follow on all other important religious matters.

None of the people who are anti vax are anti vax on religious grounds but because they believe that the vaccines are dangerous and unnecessary and therefore they have a medical belief.

If there are actually ravs who hold against vaccines as a religious belief, the person should be an adherent of that ravs shul. If yiu are claiming vaccination violates your religious beliefs, attending the shul of a Rav who does not believe vaccination violates Judaic Halachka is picking and choosing which one yiu will believe for different things. And if it's okay to do for vaccination, why not for everything one finds inconvenient or doesn't accept based on secular reasoning.

A religious belief is one that is commonly recognized as part of the dictates of the religion. Stating that one cannot work on Shabbos or eat treif is a religious belief and expecting an exemption so that religious belief is not violated is appropriate. For a Jew to claim a religious exemption to not vaccinate is hypocrisy IMHO.

A Lutheran can not claim conscientious objector status based on religion whereas a Quaker can.
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amother
Emerald


 

Post Wed, Aug 24 2016, 11:39 pm
amother wrote:
People aren't "selfishly" depending on anyone for anything. They weigh the risks/benefits ratio and do what they see as best for their health which is what the torah commands. Just because 90% of the school believes otherwise doesn't make anti vaxxers wrong. Maybe, just maybe, they are in fact smart for doing their research. I have life long complications of a vaccine that I was never at risk for getting anyway (because it is an std, not because it was erradicated) and I will never vaccinate my child unnecessarily. Ironically, I would be ok giving some, but in order to claim a religious exemption it's all or nothing so since I wont give hep B I can't give any in order to keep up my religious exemption and keep my child in school.


Sorry your having complications. Just curious, did a medical doctor tell you that your complications come from the vaccine? Would you mind sharing what type of complications and which shots are taken for std?
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amother
Forestgreen


 

Post Thu, Aug 25 2016, 12:33 am
amother wrote:
This is what I don't understand.

People ask LOR for input in all kinds of things because there is a recognition that Judaism is not a touchy feely religion where one makes it up as one goes along.

How can an individual have a religious belief that is not that of the religious leader they choose to follow on all other important religious matters.

None of the people who are anti vax are anti vax on religious grounds but because they believe that the vaccines are dangerous and unnecessary and therefore they have a medical belief.

If there are actually ravs who hold against vaccines as a religious belief, the person should be an adherent of that ravs shul. If yiu are claiming vaccination violates your religious beliefs, attending the shul of a Rav who does not believe vaccination violates Judaic Halachka is picking and choosing which one yiu will believe for different things. And if it's okay to do for vaccination, why not for everything one finds inconvenient or doesn't accept based on secular reasoning.

A religious belief is one that is commonly recognized as part of the dictates of the religion. Stating that one cannot work on Shabbos or eat treif is a religious belief and expecting an exemption so that religious belief is not violated is appropriate. For a Jew to claim a religious exemption to not vaccinate is hypocrisy IMHO.

A Lutheran can not claim conscientious objector status based on religion whereas a Quaker can.


Like I mentioned earlier, the religious exemption does not require a Rabbi or any other religious leader's stamp of approval. If that was an important factor, it would be required.
The belief does have to be real. You have to prove that it is.
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amother
Coffee


 

Post Thu, Aug 25 2016, 12:43 am
LittleDucky wrote:
You totally don't understand the point and the science. Not every vaccine takes. That's why we have herd immunity- to help protect those and the ones who can't get vaccinated. I know an awful lot of people who physically can't get them- chemo, autoimmune disorders, medications, actually allergies (flu vaccine has egg for example). But when people who can do not get vaccinated, then it puts everyone at risk.
Just go and make your own schools. No vaxxers allowed. But stay away from my friend on chemo, the kid who had an organ transplant, and the kid who if she gets a cold it means a PICU stay.

The ones who can't get vaccinated are equal risk to the general population. Being on Chemo doesn't make you less contagious to others when you get sick. So if you are worried about that the kid on Chemo shouldn't be allowed in school because he can infect the organ transplant kid who couldn't be vaccinated. The reason why he's not vaccinated doesn't change much. And I do understand the science thank you very much
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amother
Aqua


 

Post Thu, Aug 25 2016, 12:45 am
amother wrote:
Like I mentioned earlier, the religious exemption does not require a Rabbi or any other religious leader's stamp of approval. If that was an important factor, it would be required.
The belief does have to be real. You have to prove that it is.


Yiu are missing my point.

Judaism if nothing else is a religion of law and learning.

How can one have a religious belief that is made up because that kind of thinking is not part of Orthodox Judaism.

I am genuinely not understanding the justification for having a religious belief that is not part of the religion one professes to follow.

There are many less stringent religions or beliefs that are more whatever the person holds to be their spiritual belief is what it is but Judaism is nit one of those. Adding that I am not making a value judgment in other religions that have more latitude.

However, once one selects ones Rav, how can one profess to have a belief and call it religious if that belief is not that of the Rav one follows for all other religious beliefs. At that point, it is not a religious belief because by that train of thought, anything one believes is a religious belief since it doesn't have to be the belief held by one's chosen religious leader.
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EnnuiGalore




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 25 2016, 1:14 am
amother wrote:
Oh no don't tell me you just made an aveirah. You stated a lashon hara on me. For your information no I didn't just google like you I am actually a registered nurse with four years of university education, who read and owns 50 page report written and signed by rav Shlomo Kanievski and consigned by his bro rav Chaim Kanievski who paskened that schools cannot reject unvaxed kids since there are risks involved. I am also a mother who experienced having a child go through SEVERE vaccine side effect at age of 3 and I am also a friend to someone whose both kids had vaccine injuries and I am also a niece to a dead aunt who died at age of 20 due to anaphylaxis to a shot. Don't you dare talk back to antivax mom accusing her of basing her decision solemnly on Google.


I'm sorry people you know got sick/died. You can't prove the vaccine caused any of that. Correlation isn't causation, and even if ONE of those was a bad reaction to a vaccine, it is exceedingly rare. And, there are plenty of crazy rabbis who are encouraging their minions not to vaccinate.
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amother
Chartreuse


 

Post Thu, Aug 25 2016, 1:29 am
amother wrote:
Completely not true. All public schools except religious exemption. Hashem commanded us to guard our health. It's our personal belief according to Torah what we feel fit to be considered as except able way of guarding our health. I personally have bad experience with vaxing. In addition My aunt died from anaphylaxis to shot. Now you have no right to call anti vaxers as stupid especially when anti vaxers are much more informed. Shame on you. If you concerned then keep your child in bubble. There are so many illnesses not covered by vaccines. Where is emuna in Hashem rather then government mandates.


Not everyone lives in New York.

In my state, the scheme described in Maya's OP is 100% illegal, regardless of whether the school is public or private.
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amother
Chartreuse


 

Post Thu, Aug 25 2016, 1:34 am
[quote="ahfc"]
Quote:


Actually, private schools do not need to accept religious exemptions. there are only a few things such as gender and race that a private school is federally required to abide by under discrimination law. Otherwise you are free to send your child to public school Smile I actually saw that the public school system in California is not allowing religious exemptions. This is probably because the ratio of unvaccinated kids in Calfornia schools is now a safety risk to everyone. Which is what happens when people selfishly depend on everyone else getting vaccinated to protect their unvaccinated kids.


Also private schools. (I live in California.)

Herd immunity requires (by most estimates) a 94% vaccination rate. We're seeing the results of the vaccination rate dropping lower than that, and it isn't pretty.

I daven that no other parent has to watch their infant whoop for TWENTY SECONDS, unable to catch a breath of air.


Edit to add: California still has a medical exemption. Children are only required to be current on vaccinations if their parents chose to enroll them in a public or private school. Homeschooled children do not need to be current on vaccinations.
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