Desperate for effective consequence/reaction to CHUTZPAH!

chani8

Sun, Sep 25 2016, 4:57 pm

Dont be afraid to renege on your punishments. That's old school stuff about 'following through with threats.' Dont follow through. Nothing bad will happen if you choose to be nice instead.

In fact, too bad you have to threaten to punish at all. If you could just NOT threaten a punishment in the first place, you already change the tone.

"I need you to get your shower in, and then we'll do fun stuff together." "After your shower, we'll read together, or you can play for 10 more minutes."

Nothing bad will happen if your child calls you stupid to your face, either. It's way better if there is any way to pretend you didn't hear it. But if that is impossible, then look shocked and sad, and say, "Omgosh, I love you so much and do so much for you, and you speak to me that way." And then walk away from the child in order to give those words time to sink in. And then when you face the child again, do not bring it up again. Let it be in the past. If the child says anything, you be sure to say, "I know you didn't mean it, but be careful with your words next time, because we love each other and should speak kindly to each other."

imasinger

Sun, Sep 25 2016, 5:32 pm

I agree with you for the most part here, Chani.

First step is to give a pleasant but firm direction.

Sometimes, kids say no because the direction has been phrased like a choice. "Okay, can you come in here for your shower now?"

Try instead, "It's shower time. And if you can listen right away without complaint, I'd like to give you an extra ten minutes of time to do X."

If there is complaining, ignore it as long as you get eventual compliance. Or sympathize. "It's hard to stop doing something fun to get ready for bed. I never liked it when I was your age. (hug). Okay, let's get this done with."

But no reward unless the conditions are met.

About the girl who says no, my sympathy. I have one, too. For mine, it's often about hearing what is bothering her.

For a lot of kids, a little companionship and help does the trick. Instead of, "Go clean your pigsty of a room," try, "I see a really messy room upstairs." (Note - this is a factual observation, with no judgement implied or stated.). "It needs to be cleaned by 5:00. Would you like some help, or do you think you can do it all yourself?" (The last option said with warm admiration.)

This doesn't make "no" an obvious response.

If it doesn't work, there are further strategies. "The Nurtured Heart Approach" explains a great system.

amother

Magenta

Sun, Sep 25 2016, 10:13 pm

amother wrote:

That was not very kind. Chani shared what works for her family. If you don't like it, fine. But to tell her that she doesn't care about respect for the parents or the home is really harsh. No one said that respect is a bad thing. You differ with respect to enforcement.

I can see that how I wrote it may have come off as sarcastic and/or rude but I'm not joking when I say I envy her. I wish I could be more relaxed parenting style - not get bent out of shape about kids saying and doing things that I find disrespectful but Chani is able to view as normal acceptable kid behaviors. But when my child is jumping on an expensive piece of furniture after I have asked repeatedly for her not to and explained repeatedly why it bothers me - I don't know how to just be okay with it. I don't know how to take it as anything other than a slap in the face. I don't know how to live comfortably in a home where this happens. So I am truly not trying to insult anyone. I am saying: Good for you that you can do this. But I cannot. This is not how I was raised and it isn't how I can be comfortable in my own home.

ValleyMom

Sun, Sep 25 2016, 10:16 pm

Some children are born with an inclination to be negative and say NO.

IF that is the case this type of child needs choices.

"All humans need to bathe at least 3 times a week (at a minimum) in order to avoid body odor and possibly a stench that will keep others away... what days of the week would you choose for your shower days? Let's put them on your personal calendar to remind you of the days you have committed to taking a shower."

"We need to keep our home clean and clutter free to avoid mice, rats and roaches. Look at this list and pick 3 things you are willing to contribute to help keep our home clean:
sweeping
vacuuming
clearing the dish rack
wiping the counter
swiffer the floor
etc"

Some children simply cannot tolerate demand. Giving them the dignity of "choice" helps alleviate the countless battles that are occurring on a daily (sometimes hourly) basis. PM me if you need more clarification.

MagentaYenta

Sun, Sep 25 2016, 10:19 pm

amother wrote:

What kind of discipline do you use?

yOungM0mmy

Mon, Sep 26 2016, 2:32 am

My home is far from perfect, but two things I'm really working on to raise the level of respect (for each other - I do the same as I expect from them). Firstly, no matter how difficult, a pleasant tone of voice. If you don't engage in their shouting, there is no shouting match. Sometimes that quiet voice is so much more effective. Second, phrase everything as a question. "I'm starving!" Vs "what can I have to eat?" And when a kid demands something or growls something, say "can you say that as a question" sometimes they need help to think of how to say it as a question, so I say it and they can repeat the same question, but they won't get whatever it is until they ask it.
By the same token, when I ask them to do do a favour - eg get something, I also ask it as a question, and when they say no I say I wasn't really asking, I was telling, but in a nicer way.

Also, re getting them to do daily basics, eg bedtime, break it down into separate steps (1
Put on pj's, 2 clothes in hamper 3, brush teeth and wash face). I give all 3 tasks at once, so list on my fingers and tell them do all 3 things so they know exactly what's expected of them, and then say when that's done, or if that's done by x time, then you can whatever. So you're not bribing them, but rather you expect that it will be done and then x.

The hard part is not to repeat it again and again, twice and then say I'm not telling you again but there will be a consequence if you don't, but I find it really difficult to leave it when it comes to things like teeth brushing, which they'll happily skip forever, but I dont care if they don't put on pj's, for example, nothing will happen if they sleep in their clothes.

Highly recommend sora chana Radcliffe book raising your kids without raising your voice - above ideas are mostly from there.

chani8

Mon, Sep 26 2016, 2:43 am

amother wrote:

(I didn't take your comment as rude.) I heard your frustration.

My husband is more similar to you, and you can bet I've had to defend my parenting stance. That is, until my kids grew up. Because by then, my kids had an opinion on parenting. I recall when 19yo daughter said to my husband, 'Would you please read the book. It even has comics. Just read the comics part!" Referring to the book, How to Talk so Kids will Listen, by Mazlish and Faber.

I think if you read that book, you'll get the most practical help for your personality.

Most of my kids are all grown up now. Looking back, I do not regret, ever, being permissive or 'letting them get away with things'. My regrets are for the times I lost it, for getting angry, for being mean. For letting social pressure influence my parenting. For letting my husband make too many rules which I thought I was expected to follow through on.

As for that expensive sofa, I wouldn't own one, as you probably figured out. I would rather it get destroyed than fight with my kids about it for the next 20 years. In fact, I learned early on, that stuff means nothing. When we die, all we have is the impression we make on others.

chani8

Mon, Sep 26 2016, 6:05 am

chani8 wrote:
....... My regrets are for the times I lost it, for getting angry, for being mean. For letting social pressure influence my parenting. For letting my husband make too many rules which I thought I was expected to follow through on. .....

amother wrote:

How did you overcome the pressure? What strengthened you? How did you make it up to your kids?

While young, kids are forgiving. BH I made many changes for the good, while they were young, and they seem to mostly remember the good.

Mussar strengthened me. I regarded overcoming parenting flaws as 'making tshuva'. How does one make tshuva? (Apropo for this time of year.)

First, we must recognize that we've sinned. Identify the mistakes. Then we vow to never do it again. In order to never do it again, we have to stop ourselves in mid-mistake. Or better yet, prevent the whole scenario from happening in the first place. In order to do prevent from sinning again, we must create a Plan of Action.

Making a Plan of Action on how to deal with specific problems resolves so much stress. Having a Plan gives clarity and calm. And also, when one is used to relying on a plan, and finds themselves in a new scenario without a plan, they stop and think about what to do, instead of rushing in and ending up doing wrong. Tzur mei ra, v'aseh tov is a good motto.

What happens is that parents, specifically, think they are right. They think their kids are wrong. So they dont think they need to do tshuva on parenting. I had to ask myself, how does Hashem want me to behave toward my children, toward His children? Everything I was learning in frumkeit was all about being good, kind, chessedik. As we all know, "chessed starts in the home." I applied that to parenting.

I recall saying to my husband, look how respectful and nice we are to the Makolet Man. We should be at least that nice to our own kids! And whenever one of us was impatient or bossy toward the kids, I'd call the kids, the Makolet Man. "Can you take the Makolet Man to gan now?" lol

Anyway, I see I cannot answer your questions without going into off onto tangents. Sorry. Let me try again.

B'kitzur, I overcame the pressure by getting an 'attitude' against social pressure, after making tshuva. I also had a Plan of Action on how I would deal with people who pressured me to parent incorrectly.

I was strengthened by books... on chinuch, personality types, mussar, anger management, shmiras haloshen. Plus I went to a few chinuch classes, and a support group. And I chatted in real life with people whose parenting I could respect.

To force me to be a better parent, I purposely am open with my kids when I realize I am wrong. I literally announce my wrong to my family. And when the whole family spirals into negativity, I make geeky declarations of expectations of change. "Today we will be nice to each other!"

There is so much more to say. Cheerfulness. The goal is, having a cheerful home. When I learned to smile and be cheerful, most of my parenting problems dissipated. I learned to sound like a ganenet. "Ok children, time to clean up. Let's sing the clean up song."

If your child wont behave, sing a cheerful song that directs them to do something good. "Time to play with Legos..." and hum the rest of the song in your head..."Instead of destroying the sofa."

And now I have to run and dont have time to edit this to be shorter and sweeter.

saw50st8

Mon, Sep 26 2016, 7:44 am

amother wrote:

So when I ask my child to clean her room because it looks like a bomb went off and she says, "no".....
When I tell her it's time to do homework and she says, "no"....
When I tell her not to jump on the couch, not to leave wet towels on the floor, not to leave her dirty dishes on the table, not to leave old lunch containers in her backpack, not to hit her sister or shout in my face.... and she just carries on as she sees fit I should not call this chutzpah and respect and agree with her choices??? Um, no.

For some chutzpah, I just say "Let's try that again" and help them rephrase.

For something like cleaning up her room, I would ask "Why?" If she says "I don't feel like it" try to drill down a little further. Is she tired? Is it overwhelming? (when my messes get too big, I definitely have trouble getting started).

For something like lunch containers, you can try "I can't pack lunch unless the containers clean. I see that you are having trouble making sure your containers are in the sink/dishwasher, so we'll make one container yours. Once it's clean, then I can pack lunch. If not, you are going to have to figure out a solution."

Hitting her sister is totally unacceptable. What is triggering her hitting her sister? Try to get to the root cause of what is going on, rather than specifically dealing with the behavior. You will likely see a reduction in poor behavior choices if you can get to the root of the issue.

amother

Ruby

Mon, Sep 26 2016, 8:01 am

amother wrote:

My 8 yr old son has gotten way out of control lately with the chutzpah and not listening! He's a really goo kid generally but lately his mouth is getting him in so much trouble! I send him to his room for timeout constantly, or I'll threaten that he won't have a friend over or can't play outside, then I feel terrible when I have to stick to it. None of it seems to be helping in any case!

Any ideas on how to effectively deal with this would be most welcome!! My younger son is starting to catch on 😞!

You say he's generally a good kid.
I heard in a shiur once that if a "generally good kid" is acting up, perhaps Hashem is trying to show us that we are acting that way to HIM.

I'm not trying to judge. A lot of us have been there.

The speaker suggested to sit down, ALONE, and have a heart to heart with Hashem. Try to figure out how you were chutzpah to Hashem. If you can't figure it out ask Hashem to help you figure it out.
The most important.
Thank Hashem 1. For this child. 2. For showing you through this child. 3. For the chutzpah itself, because it's going to help you grow.

Chayalle

Mon, Sep 26 2016, 10:10 am

amother wrote:

None of these are examples of Chutzpah. Chutzpah would be a child speaking disrespectfully to an adult. Not a child behaving like a child. Children are little human beings that jump on the couch, leave their stuff around, and would prefer to play than clean up their own mess or do their homework.

What you need here is parenting methods to get more cooperation from your child...not responses to Chutzpah.

myym

Mon, Sep 26 2016, 12:16 pm

I read through the whole thread as I appreciate all the parenting advice.
However OP, I think something very important that people missed is that maybe your son is unhappy about something.
I have a son the same age and when he starts acting that way, saying no, im not doing it, and being defiant, it is a clear sign to me that something went wrong in his day.
When he responds that way I would stop whatever I am asking him to do, and say how was your day? Did somethingg happen? Tell mommy. Mommy loves you," and Id give him a hug. Sometimes he will open up and cry about something right then, and sometimes he will rebuff me and share only later on in the night.
Point is, I strongly suspect your son is just having some hard days in school. It's now the beginning of
the school year with a new rebbi and teacher and being around friends. Its hard for kids.
Look at his defiance as a call for help. That is almost always what it is.