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Israeli couple singing together on you tube
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amother
Hotpink


 

Post Mon, Sep 26 2016, 5:39 pm
I am asking this question purely out of curiosity and for my own knowledge and not in any way to be judgmental. There is an Israeli couple who sings songs Erev Shabbos and posts them on YouTube. They are very cute and sing beautifully and seem to have a lot of fans. my question is though she looks to be shomer Mitzvahs with her hair covered and singing inspirational songs, why is this ok in terms of kol Isha? I know that there are opinions that a woman can sing if she is not seen or the man listening doesn't know what she looks like, or if her voice blends in with others and you can't differentiate hers, or some say it's ok if it's zemiros. I have seen other women who sing in front of men even though they are very "frum" in all other areas seemingly. Am I missing something, are there sources for this, lenienies that I wish I knew, and maybe what I have learned all along is not actual halacha but extra stringencies? As long as I'm wondering about this I am confused about hair coverings. I have seen many people who are very careful with all Halachos who only partially cover their hair like with a wide headband Etc why is this okay? Again I am wondering if there are sources for these things that I have never heard of or if these people have something to rely on to be lenient and maybe I have learned the strictest way of being. Please help me understand how these things came to be into Halacha and what the bottom line really is.
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tichellady




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 26 2016, 5:54 pm
I believe that you are sincere but unfortunately my experience on this site has been that when I try to explain halalahic opinions that are more common in the modern orthodox community ( some) posters respond that my rabbis are invalid and incompetent and I'm not in the mood for that today.
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trixx




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 26 2016, 6:03 pm
I've seen them too but clearly they think they're doing the right thing re kol isha so not my problem.

My bigger curiosity is with niddah (unless they hold similarly and aren't as strict with it as others are), like do they have a system where they save things to post for when she's niddah? But that's pure logistical curiosity and none of my business.

Either way they are kah adorable and seem very much in love and I just enjoy watching their obvious chemistry and friendship. Seeing what looks like an incredible relationship is almost better than the singing.
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water_bear88




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 26 2016, 6:05 pm
I don't know that I'd call it leniencies vs stringencies, just different approaches to halacha. I can speak more to the partial haircovering.

I was taught the main purpose of haircovering is to clearly designate that one is an eshet ish, and that in our day hair is so commonly seen that it isn't a michshol for most men. To be clear, there are parts of the body (for example, bellybuttons) that halacha says need to be covered, even if general society decides crop tops and bikinis are fine as streetwear. Halacha has long allowed unmarried women to uncover their hair, though, so it's clear that isn't in the same category as bellybuttons.

So in Israeli society, where most married dati women wear at least something on their heads, men (dati and non-dati, from my experience) can tell I'm married even with my bun sticking out the back of my mitpachat or from under my hat, and they treat me accordingly. I got plenty of light teasing/flirting when I was single- the day I showed up back at work with my hair (partially) covered, that stopped, because decent men do not flirt with other men's wives. I'm saying all this to demonstrate that I'm fulfilling the halachic requirement as I was taught it, and I assume those who wear wide headbands hold that covers the requirement.

Btw, could you post a link to the youtube channel or a search term? I read about them on Shabbos a few weeks ago and forgot to look them up on Motzash, and don't remember where I read about them.
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tichellady




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 26 2016, 6:11 pm
Ok I changed my mind, here are some relevant articles

here are two articles, the first is an interesting article that might show you some different views about tzniut. You don't have to agree with them, but it will give you some perspective. I am not interested in defending these view points on imamother- just showing you that they exist.

for some reason, I can't find the full text of the article, but here is a summary: http://judaism.stackexchange.c.....poses

Here is a great article on kol isha, it is long but you can read the summary at the end if you don't have the time: http://traditionarchive.org/ne.....1.pdf

This article about hair covering is very accessible, http://www.myjewishlearning.co.....men/#

These two articles about hair covering are more academic, http://text.rcarabbis.org/the-.....sson/

I can't give you a link to read Rabbi Broyde's article, but you can probably read it online if you create a user account on jstor, http://www.jstor.org/stable/23.....tents
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trixx




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 26 2016, 6:16 pm
water_bear88 wrote:
.

Btw, could you post a link to the youtube channel or a search term? I read about them on Shabbos a few weeks ago and forgot to look them up on Motzash, and don't remember where I read about them.


Yonina
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dimyona




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 26 2016, 6:22 pm
trixx wrote:
I've seen them too but clearly they think they're doing the right thing re kol isha so not my problem.

My bigger curiosity is with niddah (unless they hold similarly and aren't as strict with it as others are), like do they have a system where they save things to post for when she's niddah? But that's pure logistical curiosity and none of my business.

Either way they are kah adorable and seem very much in love and I just enjoy watching their obvious chemistry and friendship. Seeing what looks like an incredible relationship is almost better than the singing.


Many poskim say that singing is not a problem while niddah, even if it is considered kol isha for strangers. In fact, I don't know of any MO/DL rabbis that say it's a problem, especially if it's not a romantic or explicit song.
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chicco




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 26 2016, 6:47 pm
I'm not sure why one would assume because someone is doing something then that's OK. Sure, we should be melamed zechus, but this couple isn't preaching, they are doing their thing. There are plenty of people, probably you and I included, who are shomer shabbos and are not the poster children for what a perfectly halachic following individual would look like. I would also venture that in the Israeli culture many things that are not accepted in america are totally not on the radar in dati communities.

As far as being melamed zechus, kol isha is a problem for a man more than a woman. She can sing, the man can't listen.
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naomi2




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 26 2016, 7:04 pm
Yeah, I wondered about them too...
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greenfire




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 26 2016, 7:16 pm
well they certainly are angelic & their beautiful neshamas shine through their singing

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amother
Peach


 

Post Mon, Sep 26 2016, 7:32 pm
Their singing is beautiful and they are angelic. But I can't bear to watch them - she looks so young and happy and reminds me so much of my younger self 10 years ago before life and many kids happened. (I think they just have one baby so far). Before my eyes just turned sad.

Sorry to be a downer, but Yonina keeps appearing on my FB feed and friends are talking about them and I just needed to say this somewhere.
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tichellady




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 26 2016, 8:04 pm
chicco wrote:
I'm not sure why one would assume because someone is doing something then that's OK. Sure, we should be melamed zechus, but this couple isn't preaching, they are doing their thing. There are plenty of people, probably you and I included, who are shomer shabbos and are not the poster children for what a perfectly halachic following individual would look like. I would also venture that in the Israeli culture many things that are not accepted in america are totally not on the radar in dati communities.

As far as being melamed zechus, kol isha is a problem for a man more than a woman. She can sing, the man can't listen.


I think it's different when people do things very publicly. I would assume they wouldn't do something they think is wrong for the whole world to see.
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amother
Rose


 

Post Mon, Sep 26 2016, 8:07 pm
I believe there is an opinion that a recording is not technically a "kol" and therefore a recorded voice (as opposed to a live one) is not an issue. It's not something we hold of, so dh wouldn't watch these videos and I wouldn't make one of myself, but it's possible that's how they hold.
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tigerwife




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 26 2016, 8:16 pm
Thanks for posting, Greenfire! That was beautiful, I love how they are smiling throughout the whole song.

Personally, I have recorded songs professionally with at least two Frum male studio engineers. There is no sheilah on my end and on their end I believe they have a heter for Parnasa. I would not post my work on a public forum like YouTube because I wouldn't feel comfortable but I have no idea where that falls halachically, from the woman's side. I'm something like RW Heimish BY if you need a box for reference Wink .
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amother
Hotpink


 

Post Mon, Sep 26 2016, 8:50 pm
Water _ bear88, thank you for the explanation, do these women have sources to rely on that covering is only as a sign of marriage? Why do my Rabbi ' s say hair becomes ervah when a woman marries and no more than a tefach should show, and even that is not really favorable. When I asked a huge Talmud chochom about it he said he couldn't find any source that says it's ok to only be partially covered. In other words is it halacha or not and why can there be different interpretations of it? We all know halachos of Shabbos and pretty much agree across the board no matter where we live or who we are. Same as kol isha, if it's halacha then why do we not all regard it the same. I don't believe that this couple would publicly do something they think is wrong, so why do some of us regard this as halacha and some not? I'm so confused. Thank you for the links tichellady, I didn't read them yet, but plan to.
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amother
Hotpink


 

Post Mon, Sep 26 2016, 8:59 pm
As an aside, my husband is the one who introduced me to them, and I'm so annoyed that he is watching! I tell him he's the one who's not supposed to listen but somehow I guess all of a sudden he's not regarding it as straight out halacha either because they make it look like it's ok. Truthfully, if I'm honest with myself the real reason it's bothering me that he is listening to them is because they do like an ideal happy deeply in love couple and she seems so pretty and calm and harmonious. And that's nothing like us right now
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amother
Orchid


 

Post Mon, Sep 26 2016, 9:32 pm
Didn't read the responses so closely but my husband and I (right wing YU) always learned that kol isha was only a concern with live music, not recorded, so these videos are not a problem.

ETA I only saw the videos that seemed to be taken by themselves. I see the one posted above is in a studio with another man - maybe he's a relative of hers?
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Shani88




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 26 2016, 9:42 pm
Yes I've wondered the same thing about this couple regarding kol isha but I just assumed they have a lenient Rav who allows them to post videos as long as they are not singing live.

I also think they are the cutest couple who seem so in love but before you get jealous just remember you don't know what goes on in any marriage behind closed doors. They were blessed with stunningly gorgeous voices that harmonize so well together. Of course watching them sing and smile at each other holding one very content baby will make their marriage look perfect. Do you think they'd post a video of themselves singing while holding a crying baby?

I really hope they have a happy long lasting marriage and can continue to make beautiful videos because I really adore them.
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amother
Amber


 

Post Mon, Sep 26 2016, 9:50 pm
amother wrote:
Their singing is beautiful and they are angelic. But I can't bear to watch them - she looks so young and happy and reminds me so much of my younger self 10 years ago before life and many kids happened. (I think they just have one baby so far). Before my eyes just turned sad.

Sorry to be a downer, but Yonina keeps appearing on my FB feed and friends are talking about them and I just needed to say this somewhere.


You seem sad. First of all if you were their age 10 years ago then you're still very young.

It seems like a lot has happened in your life. Time moves on for everyone and it wouldn't be a good sign if you were the same now as you were 10 years ago.

And make memories now so that in ten years from now you'll be able to look back to them sans sadness. In other words, live in the present.
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tichellady




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 26 2016, 9:54 pm
amother wrote:
Water _ bear88, thank you for the explanation, do these women have sources to rely on that covering is only as a sign of marriage? Why do my Rabbi ' s say hair becomes ervah when a woman marries and no more than a tefach should show, and even that is not really favorable. When I asked a huge Talmud chochom about it he said he couldn't find any source that says it's ok to only be partially covered. In other words is it halacha or not and why can there be different interpretations of it? We all know halachos of Shabbos and pretty much agree across the board no matter where we live or who we are. Same as kol isha, if it's halacha then why do we not all regard it the same. I don't believe that this couple would publicly do something they think is wrong, so why do some of us regard this as halacha and some not? I'm so confused. Thank you for the links tichellady, I didn't read them yet, but plan to.


Read the links and then I would be happy to discuss in greater detail. I am not an expert on this but I have some answers.
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