Do you agree with this advice?

amother

Tue, Jun 19 2007, 12:11 pm

I have a problem 13 yr old daughter, that whatever we tell her to do, wants to do the opposite. She is after a few sibs who were total "goody goodies" at school and at home.

I've been told by a FRUM "expert" to allow her to do whatever she wants, as long as she doesn't hurt herself. Meaning- whatever clothing, whatever music, whatever friends, whatever whatever!

This is contrary to my insticts of insisting on law and order and rules.

The "expert" says that with time, she'll see that we are warming up to her , trusting her, caring about her, and she'll change her ways. In the meantime, I'm nauseaus.

What have you seen work, in such cases?

red sea

Tue, Jun 19 2007, 12:28 pm

amother wrote:

In general its good parenting advice to pick your battles & those you pick you MUST win.

Re the music, if house rules are no "this" type of music you can regulate it to playing out loud but dont interfere with headsets.

The expert prob seees this rebellion & figures if you ignore it , the rebellion might be over quicker is my guess. But the child has to know you disapprove very matter of factly, very careful it shouldnt come across condescendingly to her - just loving, reasons would be nice if you could supply them w/o demeaning what daughter sees as appealing at the time.

Clothing, since you pay, is also your rules as to purchases but would def give the kid leeway to an extent so they can get their rebellion out of their system.

Friends you cant choose , she does, so stay out of it cuz I dont think their is any way for you to work that, if you get involved at all you'll push her into those friends.

If shes a contradictarian, uh, stick to choices, not directives, help her feel heard and her opinions valued.

jmho

amother

Tue, Jun 19 2007, 1:27 pm

More Food for Thought- along the same lines:

How to Improve Your Relationship with Your Rebellious Teen

Stop criticizing. Don't think that an indirect or subtle critical statement will take the sting out of the remark. Hinting is the least effective form of communication. You get all the negative effects of criticism without any of the benefits of direct communication. Likewise, criticism said with a smile or "for a child's own good" remains criticism.
Focus on emotional needs and on the relationship rather than on behavior. Just until the relationship improves, try overlooking your child's rebellious behaviors (sleeping late, hanging out) and put all of your energy into developing the relationship.
You don't have to exercise every right you have. You certainly have the right to tell your 16-year-old to be home by 1:00 A.M. However, if exerting your authority will make your child more resentful and thereby worsen the relationship, then it makes no sense to exercise that right at that time.
Focus on process and not on events. Appreciate your child's developing sense of confidence, or other signs of emotional health. Acknowledge gradual change. Otherwise, even when your teenager begins to improve, he will view himself as a failure since his actions are still far from your expectations. This can cause him to stop trying.
Don't expect your child's angry mood to dissipate overnight just because you become more sensitive to his or her feelings. Be patient. There may be years of accumulated anger and resentment. It will take time for your child's anger to dissipate.
When you give advice or make decisions regarding your child, do so with obvious consideration for his feelings. Don't objectify your child. Relate to him as a human being with particular feelings, wishes and desires.
The most difficult task. Change your attitude! Stop believing your son or daughter is acting out because of maliciousness or laziness. Children who act out usually do so because of a deep-rooted unhappiness. If your child is sleeping until 11:00 A.M. every day and as a result is constantly punished and criticized, laziness is obviously not a sufficient motivation.
Make your child's happiness, and not your nachat (pleasure from children), your major goal.
Last, but certainly not least, don't give up. If your child sees that you are genuinely concerned about his happiness, he will respond. It may take some time, but together with the merit of tefillah, it will happen.

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amother

Tue, Jun 19 2007, 2:54 pm

As one of those once rebellious teens, I mostly agree with the advice. I did things bc they annoys my parents and just for the sake of rebelling. Once I got it out of my system, I became (and still am) such a goodie-goodie. Choose your battles carefully. If she's not hurting herself CV"S, or influence other siblings in an obviously negative way, then really think twice before getting on her case about something. I think you still can demand certain standards in YOUR house and with the clothes that YOU buy her. But like someone else said, if she's listening to the music with headphones, ignore it. You can tell her that the clothes you buy her must meet certain standards of tznius, but still allow her to express her individuality even if you hate the styles that she's wearing. You get the idea. B'Hatzlacha!

amother

Tue, Jun 19 2007, 3:27 pm

I was rebellious as a teen, and just ignoring it did not work for me. I was hungry for my mother to say "What's going on, tell me what's on your mind? Why are you doing these things?" In a non-angry non-judgemental but sincerely concerned way. I thought the fact my parents were pretending they didn't know what I was doing to be ridiculous, disturbing and I was deeply hurt by their approach. I was thinking "Don't you care about me?" and it just made me feel more rebellious.

You don't have to right away address what they are doing, but write them notes or sit and talk to them, even if they act like they are not interested. If they seem to resist your attention, they are probably just testing you. Persist with sincere desire to help them, but it should not seem too pushy...

Basically, I lost alot of respect for my parents when they lowered their standards, as I saw it, and tolerated my behavior..

greenfire

Tue, Jun 19 2007, 5:30 pm

from someone with experience ... I allowed too much ... they took advantage and ran with it ... I thought this would "save them" but they went overboard ... there has to be a balance ... allow some stuff and put down set rules for other stuff ... this way hopefully you'll have success - although some that are pushing ARE really pushing ... others do it for testing and attention ... know your child -stay close and interested despite what they do or don't do ...

amother

Tue, Jun 19 2007, 5:45 pm

I was a bit of a mess as a teeneager and partly becuase my parents bought into the leave her alone and she'll come home philosophy. But the truth is, I turned out pretty darn good. They are doing the same thing with my little sister, who dates lots of guys, dresses like a hobo, paints her nails black and disreagrds her schoolwrok eventhough she's brilliant. It really irks me when my parents do almost nothing. but they always say "you were just like her and now you are wonderful. Let her grow and she will be wonderful too." Just wanted to share my experience. I sometimes wonder would we have been better off if my parents enforced rules and regulations on us...but I look at my friends who went through that. They are no longer frum, lost and angry.
The thing my parents do best is love...lots and lots of it. I was never afriad to come to them.
So my vote is Yes, I agree with the advice...good luck

amother

Tue, Jun 19 2007, 5:56 pm

greenfire wrote:

I'm the amother who was rebellious..
I think Green says it in a nutshell... there has to be moderation, give and take...I feel like I am super strict because I felt hurt that my parents ignored situations that could have been real dangers when I was rebelling...but by being overly strict, I might cause my own children to rebel...excessive permissiveness and excessive control-freakiness will have the same result...rebellion..

Ruchel

Tue, Jun 19 2007, 6:00 pm

You do have to pick your battles.
Allow "weird" clothes, messy room, silly movies, sleeping late... but NOT trashy clothes, opposite relations problems, trashy movies or going out late unless sleeping at a family you know very well. See what I mean? Nothing dangerous or leaving marks for the future.

Quote:

You don't have to exercise every right you have. You certainly have the right to tell your 16-year-old to be home by 1:00 A.M. However, if exerting your authority will make your child more resentful and thereby worsen the relationship, then it makes no sense to exercise that right at that time.

1 am??? 16 years old??? woah. Wouldn't fly in my house.

I was always very strong willed and everything had to be explained, but I wasn't silly and wouldn't have done anything dangerous to my health or my reputation LOL

greenfire

Tue, Jun 19 2007, 7:31 pm

Ruchel wrote:

Quote:

ruchel ... but others will and actually do ...

as for 1:00 am at 16 ... here they have curfew hours :

11 and younger Dusk
12-15 10:30 p.m.
16-17 Midnight

anybody remember the news in ny in the 70's ... "it's 10 o'clock - do you know where your children are?!"

gryp

Tue, Jun 19 2007, 8:42 pm

Am I the only one who didn't have curfew as a teenager? I came home when I was done studying or slept at my friend's house.

OP, seriously, since you haven't really described your daughter's situation, I don't know how anyone can say whether or not they agree with the advice. The only thing I see blatantly missing out from the advice is what one of the amother's mentioned: love, care, and attention.

I also think that letting her do what she wants doesn't mean she'll warm up to you! It will probably give her the message of: Oh, it wasn't that important after all... Confused

amother

Wed, Jun 20 2007, 11:15 pm

the advice did say the child has to be shown that her parents care about her, same as love right?

I disagree that she will think they don't care if they leave her to her own devices, I actually agree with the theory.
I was often tempted to rebel when I was about thirteen, the same age as this girl, it didn't start off as anything major, I know I always wanted to wear jeans (my parents wern't strict about much else, we had a tv, I watched films and music was never an issue nor was my friends) that was the main area and my mum never let me buy a pair of jeans.
So instead my rebellion went into other things, I stopped keeping Kosher and Shabbat because after all those things my parents couldn't control but eventually that died down. However, a few years on, in my late teens when I bought my own clothes I had no interest in tzniut - the one area I had never been allowed to explore was rearing its head. Bear in mind that all my friends who had rebelled in their mid teens and had been left to do as they please (obviously not literally but more or less) by then had become very frum again, only I was left behind as I was never given the opportunity to explore in that one area when I was younger and to be honest I've never returned. Sure, I keep Shabbat and Kashrut but tzniut is too difficult for me.
So I would advise not to nit pick, just be glad if your daughter is interested to keep most other halachot, let her explore in different music and clothes for a few years, the liklihood is she'll end up much stronger in her Judaism for it because I don't want anyone to make the same mistakes my parents did.

Motek

Sun, Jun 24 2007, 3:38 pm

amother wrote:

In my husband's opinion, ignoring or not ignoring her behavior is not the point. The point is developing a relationship with each of one's children.

If a child has a wonderful relationship with their parents, they are far less likely to feel the need to rebel. If they identify with their parents and their values, they will adopt these values as their own.