I told them not to come back and stuck with it

amother

Emerald

Wed, Oct 26 2016, 9:14 pm

amother wrote:

I would think you could have taken advantage of this situation to teach your children that you do a chesed even when it is hard for you. And, you do it with a gracious smile. You could have taught your children that as important as things are, people and their feelings are even more important. Yes, some of my neighbors' really messy and dirty kids come to my house and I get stuck with a wreck.

No. if someone's children destroy your property, and the mother does nothing, you are under NO OBLIGATION to have those hellians back. THIS is an opportunity to teach her children that when you don't respect individuals and their property, you lose out. "Chesed with a smile" - sounds like OP's guests blew the opportunity to take advantage of that again the first time they came over and showed zero respect. Why encourage that type of behavior? It's disgusting.

Ema of 5

Thu, Oct 27 2016, 12:40 am

amother wrote:

There is a difference between doing chesed when it's hard, and doing chesed at someone's expense. Having your house become a huge disaster, with broken things strewn about, is not a chesed.

amother

Chartreuse

Thu, Oct 27 2016, 6:17 am

amother wrote:

It was havdalah. Less than 5 minutes. Lock the house door and take valuable items inside the house. When a certain neighbor's kids come over, I move a lot of things. I still maintain property is less important than people. Why? I was raised in a house where if something broke, you break a person. I learned that things are things and can bH be replaced while a person's neshama lasts forever.

Ema of 5

Thu, Oct 27 2016, 8:24 am

amother wrote:

You're right. Lives are more valuable. And so is OP's sanity. Clearly she feels that this family cannot be in her house or sukka. So she asserted herself, hopefully politely, and said not this time. A broken sukka is not such a small expense.
What does that mean, if something broke you break a person?

amother

Pumpkin

Thu, Oct 27 2016, 10:26 am

musicmom wrote:

A year went by, kids may have grown and changed. Obviously the parenting style might be the same, but you don't want to cut yourself off from friends. Eventually, the kids will know better and behave, and you might miss out!

It's more than just a parenting style. I've had guests like this where the kids are wild and destructive but when the parents don't apologize, don't try to clean up anything at all, don't offer to fix or replace anything, I feel disrespected and I don't feel like they are treating me with respect.

I expect my friend to treat me with basic decency and respect and try to make amends when they (or their kids) mess up. I think it's healthy to set boundaries when you are left feeling like a shmatte.

Op, good for you for setting boundaries for you and your family.

Fox

Thu, Oct 27 2016, 11:24 am

I'm usually pretty vocal in urging people to stretch their comfort zones when it comes to the mitzvah of hachnoses orchim. The "why should you stress yourself?" attitude is antithetical to a Torah life.

But anyone who regularly opens her home to guests knows that there are guests and there are guests.

IME, children running wild or causing damage is usually a symptom -- not the problem itself. Unfortunately, there are many, many people who are damaged or under-developed in some way. They may not recognize social norms; they may be immature; or they may be looking for more in the relationship than you are able to give. Many of these people confuse friendliness with friendship.

So while it's important to be honest with yourself and be willing to stretch your comfort zone, you also have to recognize those situations where your hospitality will be misconstrued as evidence of a deeper relationship. In such cases, it's kinder to set firm or even arbitrary boundaries than to disappoint a vulnerable person when you cannot be the sister/mother/best friend that he/she wants you to be.

I don't know the specifics of the OP's guests, but the fact that they keep inviting themselves when other arrangements (the shul succah) are easily available makes me suspect that even the slightest, most reasonable courtesy (like welcoming them for havdalah) would be the thin edge of a very problematic wedge.

amother

Chartreuse

Thu, Oct 27 2016, 12:37 pm

Fox wrote:

Exactly what I am trying to say. Children that run and break things while a mother watches doing nothing is most likely a symptom of a dysfunctional home. Acting out, anger and breaking things is usually a symptom of a deeper problem. I think rather than being annoyed, one should have rachmanus on the children. I have an abusive neighbor. Their children are always by me. I speak to them the way I speak to my own dc. Eventually, these children learned my boundaries and respect my home and my time. By others, they are monsters. It takes time and patience. Another neighbor is simply dysfunctional, when their kids come I literally stand over them. Their parents don't pick up social norms and their children are a wreck. Yes, these are children who totally would break a succah and so much more. But, they are more than welcome in my home. (Yes, I am OCD about cleanliness. Ask any of my friends and neighbors.) For my sanity, I also really try to keep these parents out of my home, but, I always have their children.

Maybe because I was that little child, I understand that as important as my boundaries, things, cleanliness and sanity are, a little neshama in pain matters so much more to me. A family took me in and built me up. I would help them out so that the children feel comfortable coming to my home.

My beautiful oldest dd (5) just told an out of town friend that X is always allowed in our home because X needs a break sometimes. One particularly hard day for X, my dd brought X into our home and to me for a hug. My dd then continued to distract her. The compassion that my 5 year old little girl displays is well advanced for her years. I really respect her for this. What she has learned from this experience is mind boggling. So, yes, I would be fine having them in my succah. I see the long term benefits.

Chayalle

Thu, Oct 27 2016, 1:22 pm

Charteuse amother, what you do is beautiful. Not everyone is able to do this. But if you can, it's really amazing and you are building a world.

My DD (8) also has a friend from a rather dysfunctional home. I have the child over sometimes, and usually, in addition to the wreck they make, DD acts up afterwards - it brings out the wild, not-hearing-a-word-Mommy-says side of her. Maybe I'm not as good at boundaries as you are, but this has been going on for a few years already and it hasn't gotten much better - child still does not respect boundaries in our home, and DD is noticeably different - not in a very positive way - for a while after she leaves. I have her over when I can, but sometimes I need a break and say that today is not convenient for us.

amother

Chartreuse

Thu, Oct 27 2016, 2:05 pm

Chayalle wrote:

You are completely right. I only expanded due to the negative comments in response to my comment. There is also an unstable neighbor of mine looking for co-dependent relationships and is really negative. This person comes and watch me fly in the opposite direction! Even a hello is hard for me. Everyone has their boundaries. I threw my opinion in as a point to consider in the grand scheme of things.

amother

Emerald

Thu, Oct 27 2016, 5:25 pm

amother wrote:

If this neighbor is truly abusive, you have an obligation to the children to report this parent to child protective services if you haven't already. No excuses.

octopus

Thu, Oct 27 2016, 9:52 pm

amother wrote:

I also agree what you do is beautiful, too. But if having guests makes mommy yell more afterwards at her own family, or makes her have a lot less patience, was it really such a big chessed in the long run for this type of scenario? I'm only saying this as a person who finally realized my own limitations. I used to say yes to every last favor, etc. And then I saw what it was doing to me and how it affected my own family. I don't think we all can sit and judge what op can and cannot handle. As long as people are treated kindly and respectfully, most functional and even non-functional people can understand "no." I still do chessed, and I still sometimes stretch myself to my limit. But I have learned to say no when I cannot do something.