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Forum -> Chinuch, Education & Schooling
Paying the Rebbi
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amother
Royalblue


 

Post Mon, Nov 07 2016, 6:47 am
penguin wrote:
I'd be interested in a study on the rate of urinary tract infections in the schools mentioned.

Don't know about studies, but my father is a urologist and has treated kids who have developed complications due to bad bathroom policies (not just in yeahivas, happens in a lot of public schools too). He is very against any policy that prevents kids of any age from using the facilities when they need to. When I was in third grade, I had a teacher with a very strict bathroom policy. I wrote an anonymous letter to the principal saying that it wasn't ok and could "cause severe urological complications" (yes, I used those exact words). Needless to say, the principal figured out pretty quickly who wrote that letter LOL but he did look into the matter, and did call my father to ask his opinion, and he spoke to all the teachers and told them they have to let kids use the bathroom when they need to. I have taught, and always allowed kids to simply get up and leave when they needed to. Did some kids abuse this? Yes. But frankly, if a kid is regularly "using the bathroom" for 20 minutes of the class period, or if it's a constant revolving door of kids going in and out, the bathroom policy is not the problem here.
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amother
Gray


 

Post Mon, Nov 07 2016, 7:04 am
and the rebbe is running a side business! Honestly, who can learn from a rebbe who personally takes money for allowing his students to use the bathroom?


No one is getting rich charging 25cents for using the bathroom.
I understand where the rebbi is coming from.
But, there has to be a better system.
If you as a parent approach the rebbi with a better one, I'm almost positive he'll listen, especially if he is so amazing.
We are not allowed to "hold it in" during davening.
Is it allowed during learning?
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saw50st8




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 07 2016, 7:09 am
Many adults do certainly get docked pay if they show up late (usually hourly or union employees) and many jobs do have strict break policies. I don't know why people think it doesn't exist in the adult world.

Regardless, I think this policy is very strange and there has to be a better way. Deal with the abuse of bathroom privileges on kids who seem to be taking excessive breaks.
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water_bear88




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 07 2016, 7:31 am
saw50st8 wrote:
Many adults do certainly get docked pay if they show up late (usually hourly or union employees) and many jobs do have strict break policies. I don't know why people think it doesn't exist in the adult world.

Regardless, I think this policy is very strange and there has to be a better way. Deal with the abuse of bathroom privileges on kids who seem to be taking excessive breaks.


Adults are capable of managing their own transportation to work, while the same can not be said of many 12-year-olds. I think it might be fair to penalize kids who come back late from breaks, but I can tell you I personally suffered for arriving late for most of one school year because of a carpool driver who couldn't get her act together in the morning.

Also, in places I've worked in, breaks were generally staggered, so there weren't excessive lines for the restroom.
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5*Mom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 07 2016, 7:53 am
saw50st8 wrote:
Many adults do certainly get docked pay if they show up late (usually hourly or union employees) and many jobs do have strict break policies. I don't know why people think it doesn't exist in the adult world.

I've worked many different jobs and my bathroom privileges have never been regulated. Nor have those of anyone else I know. It may exist somewhere, I suppose, but it's hardly the accepted norm even for adults. It's controlling. It's potentially unhealthy. It may produce technical compliance (debatable) but not much else. I'd venture to say that any adult in such a situation is likely desperate, has limited job choice, is not motivated to do more beyond the minimum required to keep from losing his job, and would jump at the chance to find another job in a more pleasant and dignified atmosphere. So even if this is a thing somewhere in the adult world, is it really productive to follow this model in our children's classrooms?
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5*Mom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 07 2016, 7:58 am
amother wrote:
and the rebbe is running a side business! Honestly, who can learn from a rebbe who personally takes money for allowing his students to use the bathroom?


No one is getting rich charging 25cents for using the bathroom.

It's distasteful.
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5*Mom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 07 2016, 8:07 am
So far, the policy that makes the most sense to me both in terms of classroom management and chinuch is a go-when-you-need-to-but-one-person-at-a-time policy. It minimizes disruption and, as a pp mentioned, hopefully has the kids thinking about the effect on their friends of staying in the bathroom too long. Habitual bathroom goers should be addressed individually if it's a problem.
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saw50st8




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 07 2016, 8:34 am
5*Mom wrote:
I've worked many different jobs and my bathroom privileges have never been regulated. Nor have those of anyone else I know. It may exist somewhere, I suppose, but it's hardly the accepted norm even for adults. It's controlling. It's potentially unhealthy. It may produce technical compliance (debatable) but not much else. I'd venture to say that any adult in such a situation is likely desperate, has limited job choice, is not motivated to do more beyond the minimum required to keep from losing his job, and would jump at the chance to find another job in a more pleasant and dignified atmosphere. So even if this is a thing somewhere in the adult world, is it really productive to follow this model in our children's classrooms?


There are many jobs where you literally can't stop to go to the bathroom (like abating asbestos - the process to get inside and out of the sealed enclosure makes it pretty impossible). Not that I think the school policy is a good one! I don't support it at all!

Also, I think limiting girls in their early teens who may be getting their period or who feel lots of discomfort is a bad idea.
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5*Mom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 07 2016, 9:11 am
saw50st8 wrote:
There are many jobs where you literally can't stop to go to the bathroom (like abating asbestos - the process to get inside and out of the sealed enclosure makes it pretty impossible). Not that I think the school policy is a good one! I don't support it at all!

Also, I think limiting girls in their early teens who may be getting their period or who feel lots of discomfort is a bad idea.

In your example there is still a high level of choice and autonomy - choice of jobs and autonomy of scheduling, that students do not have. There's also a big difference between a natural limitation and an imposed one.

I get that we essentially agree Wink.
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sky




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 07 2016, 10:03 am
I don't agree with the policy of using money. But I"m not sure where people are coming up with urinary tract infections and that is abuse.

My boys have mutliple breaks during the day. recess - 15 minute breathing breaks - lunch, post luch - pre-mincha break, etc.

My son's rebbe encourages the boys to use their break time to use the bathroom, he explained that is the time you should be using the bathroom and he would rather them not go during class unless they really need to. He did discuss it by orientation and said if any boy is intimated by his strictness or needs special consideration because of special needs we should speak to him.

Its not like the boys aren't allowed to use the bathroom the many hours they are in school. It also teachs time management.

Having boys just wondering the halls is dangerous and hanging out in the bathroom is a bad idea and should be discouraged. Breaks should be reserved when it is supervised.

(I would rather have a positive for coming on time, rather than paying for coming late. Both my boys get extra classroom points for sitting in their seats when the bell rings. On Sunday the school gives a nicer breakfast for the boys who make it there on time).
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amother
Green


 

Post Mon, Nov 07 2016, 1:38 pm
amother wrote:
Don't know about studies, but my father is a urologist and has treated kids who have developed complications due to bad bathroom policies (not just in yeahivas, happens in a lot of public schools too). He is very against any policy that prevents kids of any age from using the facilities when they need to. When I was in third grade, I had a teacher with a very strict bathroom policy. I wrote an anonymous letter to the principal saying that it wasn't ok and could "cause severe urological complications" (yes, I used those exact words). Needless to say, the principal figured out pretty quickly who wrote that letter LOL but he did look into the matter, and did call my father to ask his opinion, and he spoke to all the teachers and told them they have to let kids use the bathroom when they need to. I have taught, and always allowed kids to simply get up and leave when they needed to. Did some kids abuse this? Yes. But frankly, if a kid is regularly "using the bathroom" for 20 minutes of the class period, or if it's a constant revolving door of kids going in and out, the bathroom policy is not the problem here.


This happened to my son. He was so terrified to ask to go during class that he held it too often. This ended up irritating the lining of his bladder. Which meant he actually had to go every 15 minutes for a while. It was a nightmare. The poor child was traumatized by the whole thing.

If a teacher feels that kids are abusing bathroom breaks then he or she can try to address that in particular. But not with a blanket policy like this.
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BrachaBatya




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 07 2016, 2:42 pm
As an educator and a mother, I find this behavior of the rebbe to be APPALLING. Wow, just wow. Horrible pedagogy. Horrible methodology. Horrible middot. Wrong!
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BrachaBatya




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 07 2016, 2:46 pm
By the way, as a Minahelet myself, I think I would get FIRED if I employed such ridiculous rules on my students! Endangering their health? No, thank you!
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5*Mom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 07 2016, 3:03 pm
BrachaBatya wrote:
Horrible pedagogy. Horrible methodology. Horrible middot.

Gosh, I wish I had said exactly that. You hit the nail on the head in only 6 words!

I am heartened by the responses from teachers and principals on this thread. All may not be lost.
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