At vs. by | Imamother

amother

Azure

Sun, Dec 04 2016, 9:56 pm

amother wrote:

I actually disagree... I think it's correct but the examples are not so clear, at least not when read without context. My problem now is that this is the impression I have, I cannot point to specific rules that prove it.

Standing by the side of the road indicates a vague location, like when someone is not entirely sure exactly where he or she is.

Standing at the side of the road is more precise, as if the person is waiting at a prearranged location at the side of a specific road.

Am I right?

When I differentiate between a specific time and a deadline, I mean the kind of deadline that marks the end of the period within which it is acceptable to complete the task, like the idea familyfirst posted.

I have to finish this by noon tomorrow, because I need to start class at 12.
Please have this ready by 12, because I am planning to pick it up at 12:05.

ETA: Regarding the last two examples, how about:

I want to finish this by tomorrow.

Not to be mean, but why are you teaching grammar to teens if you are not sure of basic grammar.

amother

Blush

Sun, Dec 04 2016, 9:58 pm

pause wrote:

The examples given don't show the bolded; they only indicate the second (unbolded) part of your post.

I see what you're saying.

Do you think I should skip the bolded then? (I did edit my post before you posted but it's not that different.)

amother

Blush

Sun, Dec 04 2016, 10:01 pm

amother wrote:

Not to be mean, but why are you teaching grammar to teens if you are not sure of basic grammar.

Is it so basic?

Can you explain the rules to me, then?

pause

Sun, Dec 04 2016, 10:06 pm

amother wrote:

I see what you're saying.

Do you think I should skip the bolded then? (I did edit my post before you posted but it's not that different.)

Yes. I would. Unless you can bring an example that proves that by can be used to indicate an approximation of time.

amother

Blush

Sun, Dec 04 2016, 10:17 pm

pause wrote:

Yes. I would. Unless you can bring an example that proves that by can be used to indicate an approximation of time.

The only examples I can think of are approximate deadlines.

The guests had all arrived by six o'clock.

Or an example where there is no specific time mentioned at all:

By the time I arrived, the waiters were clearing the tables.

acemom

Sun, Dec 04 2016, 10:57 pm

octopus wrote:

By means near. The correct phrase would be "I stayed at Sarah's house." If you say, "I was by Sarah's house" that technically means you were near Sarah's house. Using "by" like this is a yiddishism.

I agree, but I am no grammar expert.

Miri7

Mon, Dec 05 2016, 5:00 pm

Here are some more example sentences for "by" - from Mirriam Webster:

His wife was sitting by him.
They have a house by the lake.
The bus went right by him without stopping.
Some friends stopped by our house for a chat.
Why don't you come by my place later?

amother

Azure

Mon, Dec 05 2016, 5:15 pm

http://www.yourdictionary.com/at

http://www.yourdictionary.com/by

Water Stones

Mon, Dec 05 2016, 6:18 pm

I'm laughing because I'm trying to learn the perfect English speaking and I don't understand these posts for what is correct what is incorrect! Scratching Head

invisiblecircus

Tue, Dec 27 2016, 11:58 am

MitzadSheini wrote:

Me neither. They all sound American Yeshivish to me.

I would say

Can I sit near (or next to) you?

He was standing next to me

The post office is near/next to/ close to/ opposite (pick one) the bank

(btw I am not American)

In those sentences, "by" and "next to" have the same meaning, so while you might prefer to say "next to", it is also correct to use "by", it's not at all American Yeshivish.

"Near" does not mean the same as "next to" or "by." It is less specific.

amother wrote:

The prepositions at and by may cause confusion because both words can be used to indicate location or time.

Location:
At is used when naming a specific location.

The party will take place at my neighbor’s house.
Meet me at the entrance.

By is used to indicate near a place, or when indicating an abstract location.

stood by the side of road.
She stood by my side throughout the ordeal.

In the examples you have given, "at" could be used instead of "by" without changing the meaning of the sentence. The problem is that you've used the side/ my side which makes it confusing and means that either "by" or "at" could be used.

This should be simple to teach.
"The incident happened at the post office" (It happened in the post office)
"The incident happened by the post office" (It happened next to the post office)
I would draw two pictures of the same building (post office) and an arrow to indicate where the incident happened.

Then explain that "I was at the Rabbi's house for Shabbat lunch" means that you were a guest at the Rabbi's house. "I was by the Rabbi's house for lunch" means you were outside, next to the house, so you would not normally say that.

MagentaYenta

Tue, Dec 27 2016, 1:18 pm

amother wrote:

Not to be mean, but why are you teaching grammar to teens if you are not sure of basic grammar.

This^. It people who teach ESL have training and a practicum in the subject. To the OP do you have any ESL resources that you can take advantage of?

petiteruchy

Wed, Jan 04 2017, 8:01 pm

Don't feel bad, op. These minor rules are very complicated to teach to native speakers, and in fact often aren't taught explicitly because the rules shift over time and what sounds right today won't sound right tomorrow.

In the 19th century, scholars were Latin obsessed and tried to squeeze English into Latin rules... As this was also when formal schooling in the sense we're familiar with was popularized, we got the idea that proper schooling included grammar drilling, even though it's fairly nonsensical for a language as multilayered and complex as English.

English learners appropriate the subtleties and variety of the language through exposure. Giving them lots of examples of different styles of writing, rather than an exhaustive list of rules will go further in turning them into accomplished writers.

ESL is additionally complex because you do not teach English to Spanish speakers the same way as you do to Mandrin speakers or Hebrew speakers. And finding resources that specifically target Yiddish speakers, when they're a tiny minority of ESL learners, is nearly impossible. There isn't going to be much out there that explains the many reasons you use at instead of by in a yiddish context.

I got through to my Yiddish speaking students by using the proximity example, explaining it wasn't fool proof, and correcting them when they used it in speech or writing. By the second year with me they've mostly given it up. But I spend very very little time on explicit grammar instruction. Instead we read a lot of fairly complex literature and they write large quantities of text for me too.

Now if only I could cure them of writing alot!