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Male/ female gender



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technic




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 16 2005, 6:43 pm
there r SOME pple who (when investigated medically)r found 2 b one gender externally and another gender internally - how can u say that THEY have the "choice" of how they should behave???!!!
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Tefila




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 16 2005, 6:46 pm
Is there such a thing nowadays as someone being born physically w/h both shock
B/c my son learnt think it's in gemora that there is such a person and certain halachos pertaining to he/she Confused
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technic




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 16 2005, 6:50 pm
freilich im pretty sure yes...cant quote u exactly who tho Wink
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 16 2005, 6:53 pm
technic wrote:
there r SOME pple who (when investigated medically)r found 2 b one gender externally and another gender internally - how can u say that THEY have the "choice" of how they should behave???!!!


it's not me, but the Torah ...

and what exactly does one gender externally and one internally mean?

freilich - that's something altogether different

the Mishna describes a person born with both female and male s-xual organs (the androgyne), and it describes a person born with indeterminate gender-physically

all kinds of halachic questions - are they obligated in mitzvos like a man or a woman
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Tefila




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 16 2005, 8:04 pm
Quote:
the Mishna describes a person born with both female and male s-xual organs (the androgyne), and it describes a person born with indeterminate gender-physically

But such a thing still occurs nowadays never heard of it Confused
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hisorerus




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 16 2005, 8:07 pm
I once was very bored and read a medical manual on possible birth defects- yes, it happens, and there's a LONG list of possibilities...

Nowadays it seems they'll usually wait till the child is old enough to show what they're more predisposed to (masculine or feminine) then do surgery and give hormones.

Not sure how common, but 25 concise pages in a comprehensive manual are not about something that doesn't exist!
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Tefila




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 16 2005, 8:10 pm
Hisorerus wow thats creepy does it say what type of people are more susceptable to it. I.e malnourished etc
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miriam




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 16 2005, 11:24 pm
To aswser frelich: it's basically genetic, it can run in families, or be random.

Do you really want to know the details? I asked my husband about it and he typed this (he told he got interested in the subject one day so he researched it):

It's important to remember that a fetus is female unless it receives testosterone in utero.

All of these problems occur either when a female fetus receives testosterone somehow, or if a male fetus either doesn't receive the testosterone or has a genetic condition where his cells don't respond to the testosterone.

The other class of problems is where there are 3 genes instead of the usual two. (xxx, xxy, xyy, yyy)

Usually the only way a female fetus can receive testosterone is with twins if her blood somehow mixes with her twin brothers blood. It's possible for the mother to somehow get testosterone and supply it to the fetus, but I don't think this happens naturally (just with drugs I guess).

Much more common and interesting/confusing is the other case. If a male fetus doesn't receive testosterone at all he will be 100% female. Also if his cells don't respond to testosterone at all, same thing, 100% female. The only time it will be noticed is if she becomes an athlete and gets genetically tested. Even though the genes are xy, the person is still fertile (as a woman)!

This runs in families, what you will see is cases where all the children are female, without any males at all in the family. And her mother, and grandmother were the same way. (A single generation doesn't count - but if you know of anyone where this goes back many generations (maternally, it's carried by the mother) then it's possible this is the case.)

Now comes the really interesting cases: partial male/female mixes.

This happens if the boys genes respond partially to testosterone - the more they respond the more masculine the child will be, and there is an infinite range here - all sorts of possible cases, almost always infertile.

Usually doctors will pick one gender or the other and attempt to change the child - (usually female, it's much easier to do physically, and once castrated, the child will no longer produce testosterone, so there is some chance of the child becoming more female, but psychologically it's terrible, and the child will never feel s-xual enjoyment, since that part was cut off).

But this is a SERIOUS halachic question: it's not allowed to castrate someone, and all of these operations almost guarantee sterility (and also no s-xual enjoyment).

If this ever happens to someone Chas Vesholom I VERY VERY strongly recommend that nothing at all is done: let the child grow as he/she is. This gives a possibility of fertility, allows s-xual enjoyment, and research has shown that psychologically this is best.

If a doctor ever pressures surgery (and they will do so very very strongly) always ask: will this make the child sterile? If the answer is yes never ever!! agree. If fertility is possible then always go with that direction. If fertility is anyway impossible then just leave the child alone, psychologically it's best (although doctors won't tell you that - they will tell you it's best for the child to fit in in school etc - this true as a child, but as an adult the person will be miserable).

I'm going to stop here since I don't know if anyone is actually reading this, and it's pretty long. I didn't even cover the three gene cases - you can google them if you like.


Last edited by miriam on Wed, Mar 16 2005, 11:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Tefila




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 16 2005, 11:29 pm
Gosh thats creepy!
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IndyMom




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 17 2005, 10:20 am
about mixed genders... I read a book called "middlesex" whihc I believe to be a true story about a man who, when he was born, his s-xual organs never descended, so he was raised as a girl. Only once he reached puberty did he suspect somethign was wrong wtih him.
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Pearl




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 17 2005, 10:25 am
I also read an article, a few months ago in a magazine (equivalent of The Times Magazine) with interviews of parents of children who were born androgyne, and the dilemmas they had to deal with - which gender should their child be? what does the child want?
it happens, B"H not a lot, but it does happen, all over the world.
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Rochel Leah




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 17 2005, 10:32 am
I wonder what hal;achic implications there would be with thos types of kids if they were born to a frum family--- tefillin or shabbos candles...how do they know the right way?
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Pearl




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 17 2005, 10:36 am
I thought of that too....I don't know, all those interviewed are gentiles, and never heard of a Jewish case....
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Yael




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 23 2005, 2:30 pm
this is an old thread on the same topic as the masculine/ feminine thread.
please read it, but post your replies in the other newer thread so we dont get mixed up.
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