The real Torah view about women?!

mommy3b2c

Wed, Dec 07 2016, 12:13 pm

tigerwife wrote:

Quote:

But they DO have to do with your life, because in order to stay a part of your community, you must follow these rules. Otherwise, you (I mean this as a general "you") will suffer. There is no Charedi community on Earth where you can do whatever you want, or not do the things you think are wrong, and get away with it. There will always be backlash.

What kind of things are you talking about? Things that are against halacha?

It's just a pet peeve of mine when people think that the more right wing you are, the more sheep- like you are and the more fearful of breaking social rules. Either you don't know that many people that well, or you simply have pre-conceived notions that bedeck each person in bias.

As for the topic, I'm a working mom who does feel that there is an inherent difference in the sexes yet does not feel inferior at all (and actually strongly believes the opposite).

same here. I'm actually still waiting to hear which rules I must follow because I live in Brooklyn and send to a yeshiva there. So far, nobody has made me follow any rules...

GreenEyes26

Wed, Dec 07 2016, 12:49 pm

tigerwife wrote:

Quote:

First of all, no one said "sheep like". I think that women in these types of communities make a conscious decision to go with the flow, because either a) they don't care/it doesn't bother them or 2) the pros are greater than the cons. I consider myself part of this category since, even though I am part of a MO community, I would not do certain things (or rather, I continue to do certain things) that I am not 100% in agreement with, since the repercussions would be too great.

Second of all, I don't understand how someone in a yeshivish/Chareidi community can look at me right in the face and say, "I do whatever I want, and no one cares" when we have hundreds and hundreds of accounts saying just the opposite. I don't need to go into all the specific examples, you know them just as well as I do. But to say that shidduchim, school acceptances, job opportunities, even just general standing in the community doesn't suffer if you don't "toe the line" is a blatant falsehood. In some communities it's worse than others, especially when there's already a problem with say, supply and demand (the Lakewood school situation comes to mind).

I come from a very yeshivish background, so I know what I'm talking about just fine.

mommy3b2c

Wed, Dec 07 2016, 12:59 pm

GreenEyes26 wrote:

I don't come from a yeshivish background, nor am I yeshivish now. Since I have never been coerced into doing things I don't believe in, it's possible I don't understand all the nuances of living such a life.

tigerwife

Wed, Dec 07 2016, 1:20 pm

My family is not particularly yeshivish but I went through the Boro Park/BY system. Like every society, there are people who want to fit in and those that are out of the box. I did things my own way and I think most people appreciated it, although I've certainly had teachers who couldn't take seeing anything a drop different (like Fox says, it happens everywhere, like the educated professionals who somehow produce a hippy and the hipsters who produce a Wall Street guy). And I didn't care about Shidduch rules at all and somehow married into a family that follows every rule in the book lol.

But anyway, this is totally off topic. But yes, particularly BY type women feel this way, because we get our education from Frau Sara Schenirer and Reb. Vichna Kaplan who believed bnos yisroel are way too important to lose due to lack of education.

Somehow all of these references to inferior worth in Halacha never bothered me. My personal opinion is that the monetary compensation is actually apologetics to the men, since women are much holier. Therefore they are more bound to certain mitzvos, need to wear a yarmulke. In today's day and age, it's hard to deny that we are capable of more, since we can do everything man can do yet men do not have the challenges of a woman's body.

You can say I made this up, but yes, this is how I feel and I can go on for longer but I doubt anyone is interested Wink

mommy3b2c

Wed, Dec 07 2016, 1:32 pm

tigerwife wrote:

I could have written this myself. Down to the part about marrying into a family who is into following the rules. Guess what? They love me anyway and I love them. Even if they think I'm crazy sometimes. Anything we learned in school that seemed to say women were less important went over my head. We learned a hundred more things about how women are considered greater than men in Judaism. Some call it apologetics. I call it the truth.

eschaya

Wed, Dec 07 2016, 2:34 pm

I think we've all gotten away from the initial question, and some have become enomored of repeating the few statements they were taught about women. The question focuses on the Torahs view of women. Well, to answer that question, you have to actually go through many Torah sources. DaatTorah blog conveniently has gathered many of the sources into one spot (not endorsing his blog here, I am not a fan at all). Noting that you were taught in BY that women are so special - even if you have a few minor sources to prove it (most of it modern day apologetics) - does not answer the specific question OP asked. She did not ask whether you, as a modern day frum woman, feel inferior. She asked what is the general consensus among the vast majority of Torah commentators (and the Torah itself) regarding the role/status/level/essence of woman.
It's like being asked today about Western society's feeling towards Africans in the past centuries. Like in this conversation, there will be those who will interject and argue how ridiculous this question is, of course we know that having dark skin doesn't mean one is dumb or inferior. Those same people might try to bring up specific examples of Blacks who were respected or treated well in those times. That may be true, but it would be whitewashing history to pretend that the 3/5 compromise never occured, to ignore Thomas Jefferson's statement that "their existance appears to participate more of sensation than reflection", or other statements reflecting the prevailing attitudes that Blacks were less human, less intelligent, and less deserving of the rights given to man (ie, white males). My recognition that our views as a society have changed does not mean that I am badmouthing the founding fathers, or disparaging those who had racist opinions in those days, because, after all, they truly were products of their times (as we are of ours) and I don't hold it against them. Still, to be honest to ourselves, we need to recognize that there have existed some uncomfortable and racist views, and that this is a part of our history as a nation and society.
I hope you can make the connection to our question here.
And for those who write that they've learned "hundreds of sources" showing how wonderful women are, can you please post them? I say this in all honesty. If daattorah blog has gathered many of the torah statements that are not positive towards women in our spot, maybe you can counter that with an alternate list of your own. I don't have much confidence in a robust list (just being honest after years of my own research), but perhaps some of you are better informed than I am. And no, a positive statement about a rare individual woman does not count. That's like a racist saying "some of my best friends are black". ("sarah imeinu was a tzadekes is not a statement implying that women are not inferior to men)
I still do not believe I am inferior, less capable or less intelligent. I look at some of those mefarshim, recognize that their attitudes were not shocking or unusual in their times, and then move on. I do get very angry when I read of modern day frum men (like the author of daattorah blog - he is a nutcase, though - and some of those who support him) who still believe these attitudes, and feel that these opinions are still valid, and reflect true Torah hashkafos. My strongest feeling in reading his (and similar blogs) is a deep sympathy for his wife and daughters...

GreenEyes26

Wed, Dec 07 2016, 2:48 pm

eschaya wrote:

THANK YOU. This was perfect. I'm too tired today to be much of a debater; you said everything I've been thinking!!

octopus

Wed, Dec 07 2016, 2:49 pm

dimyona wrote:

Unfortunately, I think it's bothering you because you know that you're actually right. Most of the pro women thoughts that girls are taught these days were developed as apologetics in the past couple of centuries as women's status was raised in the outside world. Both the sexist statements as well as the "women are more spiritual" fluff are products of their time.

There's a reason women can't be witnesses, can be married off by their fathers as twelve year olds, don't inherit money unless there's a halachic will, and can't pasken shailos. And it's not because the Torah views women as equally intelligent or capable.

Even rabbanim that are admired in modern communities, like Rav Kook, were opposed to women's suffrage and claimed that women are a lower level of creation and do not have a neshama!

https://jwa.org/encyclopedia/a.....isaac

I'm sorry to have to break this to you Sad

I'm sorry I can't read through whole thread. This is not Rabbi Kook's writing. This is someone paraphrasing and then allegedly citing. I'm sorry. Unless I read something in its entirety, how do I know its not taken out of context? That's how a thinking person ought to think. Now am I too lazy to actually go open a sefer and look it up myself? yes, I am . oh well.

octopus

Wed, Dec 07 2016, 3:05 pm

amother wrote:

But why are you ignoring the seemingly valid points aside from rav kook? If woman are equal to men, why isn't their testimony valid? Why can't they inherit? Why can their father force them into marriage? Plz respond to those points.

Who said women are equal to men? What is equal? What is equality exactly? This is by far a much bigger debate than what you are saying. Does any of this effect you on a day-to-day basis? I don't know anyone whose father forced them into marriage (which must not be outright in torah btw). Women inheriting is directly in torah with bnos tzlafchad. And on a practical level, I don't know ANYONE who excluded the girls from inheriting- most ppl follow american law. And as an aside, have you met an eldest boy that actually inherited pi shnayim? I haven't. As far as my testimony not being valid? Again, doesn't effect me on any basis ever. This doesn't effect my daily life. I don't know. It doesn't bother me.