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The real Torah view about women?!
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octopus




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 07 2016, 3:07 pm
When I want to see torah's view on woman, I go to chumash and navi and analyze the personalities and character traits of the famous women in tanach. That is how I see and learn the value that torah places on women. Taking random laws and bunching them together and saying, "see! torah doesn't value women!" doesn't jive with me.
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mommy3b2c




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 07 2016, 3:11 pm
amother wrote:
But why are you ignoring the seemingly valid points aside from rav kook? If woman are equal to men, why isn't their testimony valid? Why can't they inherit? Why can their father force them into marriage? Plz respond to those points.


Please bring a source for women being allowed to be forced into marriage.
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amother
Chocolate


 

Post Wed, Dec 07 2016, 3:15 pm
octopus wrote:
Who said women are equal to men? What is equal? What is equality exactly? This is by far a much bigger debate than what you are saying. Does any of this effect you on a day-to-day basis? I don't know anyone whose father forced them into marriage (which must not be outright in torah btw). Women inheriting is directly in torah with bnos tzlafchad. And on a practical level, I don't know ANYONE who excluded the girls from inheriting- most ppl follow american law. And as an aside, have you met an eldest boy that actually inherited pi shnayim? I haven't. As far as my testimony not being valid? Again, doesn't effect me on any basis ever. This doesn't effect my daily life. I don't know. It doesn't bother me.


Actually this used to affect me on a day to day basis. Try growing up in an extremely right wing family where all your brothers, uncles and your father all rattle off all these meforshim and halachos and use them to give unequal treatment to both genders.

And I know very very right wing families where the wives are treated very unfairly using these views.

So yes, many women are still affected by these outdated misogynistic views. And how can they argue with such great sages, right?
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amother
Emerald


 

Post Wed, Dec 07 2016, 3:17 pm
octopus wrote:
Who said women are equal to men? What is equal? What is equality exactly? This is by far a much bigger debate than what you are saying. Does any of this effect you on a day-to-day basis? I don't know anyone whose father forced them into marriage (which must not be outright in torah btw). Women inheriting is directly in torah with bnos tzlafchad. And on a practical level, I don't know ANYONE who excluded the girls from inheriting- most ppl follow american law. And as an aside, have you met an eldest boy that actually inherited pi shnayim? I haven't. As far as my testimony not being valid? Again, doesn't effect me on any basis ever. This doesn't effect my daily life. I don't know. It doesn't bother me.



I agree with you. On a practical level there is no difference these days between man and women. The title of this thread is asking about the torah's view on men vs. Woman. At face value, it appears the torah regards men as superior to woman.
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yksraya




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 07 2016, 3:26 pm
amother wrote:
Actually this used to affect me on a day to day basis. Try growing up in an extremely right wing family where all your brothers, uncles and your father all rattle off all these meforshim and halachos and use them to give unequal treatment to both genders.

And I know very very right wing families where the wives are treated very unfairly using these views.

So yes, many women are still affected by these outdated misogynistic views. And how can they argue with such great sages, right?

Yes there are many bad ppl who use the torah to their liking so that others suffer.
I know of woman who abuse and mistreat men. So it's not only some woman who suffer, but some men who suffer too. All in the name of torah...
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amother
Violet


 

Post Wed, Dec 07 2016, 3:32 pm
octopus wrote:
When I want to see torah's view on woman, I go to chumash and navi and analyze the personalities and character traits of the famous women in tanach. That is how I see and learn the value that torah places on women. Taking random laws and bunching them together and saying, "see! torah doesn't value women!" doesn't jive with me.


There are many great messages and values to be learned from the stories in Tanach. That doesn't change the fact that halacha determines how we live.
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baschabad




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 07 2016, 4:03 pm
Whether or not I am made to feel inferior or shamed as a Jewish woman in this day and age doesn't actually carry any weight in my opinion that women shouldn't be considered inferior.

When I would try to address my concerns about misogyny in Torah, people would invariably say something like "why are you feeling inferior? What's going on in your life that makes this a problem for you?"

But I compare it to the right for women to vote. Even if I personally don't care to vote, I certainly care that all women should have that right!
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yksraya




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 07 2016, 4:07 pm
baschabad wrote:
Whether or not I am made to feel inferior or shamed as a Jewish woman in this day and age doesn't actually carry any weight in my opinion that women shouldn't be considered inferior.

When I would try to address my concerns about misogyny in Torah, people would invariably say something like "why are you feeling inferior? What's going on in your life that makes this a problem for you?"

But I compare it to the right for women to vote. Even if I personally don't care to vote, I certainly care that all women should have that right!

Not everyone is in agreement that woman are made to feel inferior in the torah. It's a misconception. Yes maybe some rabbonim whether in todays days or back than interpreted some thing in the torah in a way that makes it seem like woman are inferior. But that is really so far from the truth.
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grace413




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 07 2016, 4:10 pm
There are many things I have difficulty with but the only one that really sticks in my throat is that a woman cannot initiate a divorce.
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amother
Violet


 

Post Wed, Dec 07 2016, 4:15 pm
yksraya wrote:
Not everyone is in agreement that woman are made to feel inferior in the torah. It's a misconception. Yes maybe some rabbonim whether in todays days or back than interpreted some thing in the torah in a way that makes it seem like woman are inferior. But that is really so far from the truth.


It's far from what you see as truth. That's not the same thing.
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yksraya




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 07 2016, 4:19 pm
amother wrote:
It's far from what you see as truth. That's not the same thing.

Well, it's a choice to see the negative or to see positive. If you want to find negativety in the torah you surely will. But if you choose to see the positive and understand the torah in a positive light you will see the torahs sweetness.
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dancingqueen




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 07 2016, 4:21 pm
Some women here don't get it. You can be happy being a woman and recognize that there are Torah sources that praise women. That doesn't negate the fact that there also many Torah sources that clearly see women as less intelligent and important (why can't women be witnesses? Why is teaching a woman Torah tiflut?)
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amother
Violet


 

Post Wed, Dec 07 2016, 4:40 pm
yksraya wrote:
Well, it's a choice to see the negative or to see positive. If you want to find negativety in the torah you surely will. But if you choose to see the positive and understand the torah in a positive light you will see the torahs sweetness.


It's also a choice to only see part of the picture.

I can, and do, find great joy in some areas of Torah. In others, intellectual honesty compels me in a different direction. None of this affects my dedication to observing halacha.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 07 2016, 7:07 pm
amother wrote:
????
If the Torah tells me that I have sixty percent of a man's my monetary value, it puts a lower value on my life than on a man's life. It's not about self esteem.


Rav Hirsch has a fascinating piece on this. But of course, it's been said earlier that Rav Hirsch is apologetics.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 07 2016, 7:11 pm
amother wrote:
And if the ratzon Hashem is that you should have an inferior place in society, do you feel deep satisfaction?


The thing is, I know these halachos are on the books, but in my day to day living I don't feel it. And it doesn't come across this way. More than once I've quoted an NPR journalist, Warren Kozak, who met Rav Chaskel Besser, z"l, when doing a piece on Kristallnacht and ended up writing his biography, a charming little book called The Rabbi of 84th Street. I heard him speak at the Jewish book fair and he spoke about writing the book, how he was practically embedded in Rav Besser's life, met his family, went to social events, etc., and he said of the women he met that they're not oppressed, they're smart, warm, funny and run the show.

And b"H, being respected "yoser meigufo" helps too.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 07 2016, 7:16 pm
amother wrote:
Actually this used to affect me on a day to day basis. Try growing up in an extremely right wing family where all your brothers, uncles and your father all rattle off all these meforshim and halachos and use them to give unequal treatment to both genders.

And I know very very right wing families where the wives are treated very unfairly using these views.

So yes, many women are still affected by these outdated misogynistic views. And how can they argue with such great sages, right?


Evidently there is something systemically wrong with a number of people's middos. Big hugs.
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octopus




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 07 2016, 7:51 pm
dancingqueen wrote:
Some women here don't get it. You can be happy being a woman and recognize that there are Torah sources that praise women. That doesn't negate the fact that there also many Torah sources that clearly see women as less intelligent and important (why can't women be witnesses? Why is teaching a woman Torah tiflut?)


Your examples are not equal. A witness may be a torah prohibition. Where does it say teaching women torah is tiflut? A gemara? one doesn't pasken halacha from the gemara. Perhaps it is a reflection on the attitude toward women at the time, but it isn't halacha. sorry. Are you offended that marriage in the torah is referred to as kinyan? and not as an equal partnership? Look, I'm no Rabbi, but women not being able to be a witness, has to do with legality of things, same way as marriage is a kinyan. It does not reflect a looking down on women (in my own opinion). Also, as I get older, I realize that halacha is not one size fits all. There are ways to be machmir and meikil. Just because something is an outright prohibition, doesn't mean that what a woman says is never taken seriously. Which is what your'e insinuating when you keep on mentioning it.


Last edited by octopus on Wed, Dec 07 2016, 7:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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octopus




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 07 2016, 7:54 pm
amother wrote:
Actually this used to affect me on a day to day basis. Try growing up in an extremely right wing family where all your brothers, uncles and your father all rattle off all these meforshim and halachos and use them to give unequal treatment to both genders.

And I know very very right wing families where the wives are treated very unfairly using these views.

So yes, many women are still affected by these outdated misogynistic views. And how can they argue with such great sages, right?


This is very sad. I grew up in a very right wing family and all the girls were encouraged to know as much as possible (torah-wise). My father even opened up mishnayos to learn with me. I always felt proud to be a girl/woman. My father even allowed us to sing zemiros at the shabbos table even when male guests were present because we were singing in a group.
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amother
Magenta


 

Post Wed, Dec 07 2016, 8:49 pm
Is something wrong with me that I just don't care? I am happy to be a woman, to love my body and all the feminine parts, to raise my beautiful children, to have a soft sensitive heart and to be exempt from certain mitzvos. I am happy to be me and one day I will die and I will hopefully go to gan eden and be with GOD. Right now every day I try to be the best me and try to enjoy the world and life that GOD created for us to enjoy. I am chareidi and I believe that not every meforash is understood by a lay person. I turn to my current rabbis who understand torah better than me to give me direction.
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amother
Cerulean


 

Post Wed, Dec 07 2016, 9:34 pm
amother wrote:
The Torah doesn't hate women. There are positive things in our tradition. But the Torah explicitly values a female life at 60 percent of a male one. Girls can be married off against their will, husbands can annul their wives' vows, women are not included in the invitation to Yerushalyim for the regalim. (And don't get me started about Niddah!)

That's not Chazal, it's Chumash. For whatever reason, Hashem wanted us to see those rules, even if Chazal have permission to finesse them a bit.

There's no such thing as "the Torah view" of most things. There's a range. Only the vast majority of tradition (as opposed to the few cute things taught in many charedi girls' schools) is weighted to the side of female inferiority.


While your examples are all legitimate, they in no way prove that Torah views women as inferior. You're just seeing it that way. Maybe men are inferior because they're sent out to fight our wars?

The problems begin when we view Torah hashkafa through the lens of modernity instead of the other way around.
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