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amother
Violet
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 Thu, Dec 08 2016, 3:33 am
| amother wrote: | While your examples are all legitimate, they in no way prove that Torah views women as inferior. You're just seeing it that way. Maybe men are inferior because they're sent out to fight our wars?
The problems begin when we view Torah hashkafa through the lens of modernity instead of the other way around. |
And you, of course, see the world through the one and only lens of Torah?
Just for the record, in case of a milchemes mitzvah, everyone goes out to fight, even a bride from under the chuppah. (That's a Mishna.)
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mo5
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Thu, Dec 08 2016, 7:02 am
| amother wrote: | ????
If the Torah tells me that I have sixty percent of a man's my monetary value, it puts a lower value on my life than on a man's life. It's not about self esteem. |
Not as apologetics but you do know how ערכין or values are calculated (end of parshas behar)?
It has to do with their production capacity, ie what each human would fetch at a Slave market (thankfully that's outlawed and doesn't exits in most of the world).
Men would be valued for their (generally) greater physical strength which in earlier times especially was needed for most trades and work.
A disabled person would be worth less too by that same rationale.
It's not about your intrinsic worth!!
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PinkFridge
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Thu, Dec 08 2016, 7:48 am
Re erchin, one of my favorite divrei Torah: The parsha of erchin comes right after the tochacha because after the tochacha, we might feel hopeless and depressed. The parsha of erchin comes to teach us that everyone, just by virtue of being alive, has some value.
(Another of my favorite divrei Torah: The Apter Rav would find a remez to the mitzvah of v'ahavta lereiach camocha in every parsha. Someone asked him where in Balak does he see it? He said, "From its very name. It's an acronym: Veis for v'ahavta, lamed for lereiacha, and kuf for camocha." His chosid asked him the obvious question about the spelling. To which the Rav replied, "Ach. If you get bogged down by little details you'll never be able to do the mitzvah.")
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imasoftov
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Thu, Dec 08 2016, 8:12 am
| mo5 wrote: | Not as apologetics but you do know how ערכין or values are calculated (end of parshas behar)?
It has to do with their production capacity, ie what each human would fetch at a Slave market |
I think you may have confused two different types of vows
- if someone vows a person's "erech" they pay the fixed amounts listed in the Torah, based on the person's age and gender
- if someone vows a persons "damim" they pay that person's value on the slave market
See Rambam, Hilchot Arachim Vacharamim, and contrast 1:3 (about the first type of vow) with 1:9 (about the second kind)
http://www.chabad.org/library/.....1.htm
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mo5
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Thu, Dec 08 2016, 8:18 am
| imasoftov wrote: | I think you may have confused two different types of vows
- if someone vows a person's "erech" they pay the fixed amounts listed in the Torah, based on the person's age and gender
- if someone vows a persons "damim" they pay that person's value on the slave market
See Rambam, Hilchot Arachim Vacharamim, and contrast 1:3 (about the first type of vow) with 1:9 (about the second kind)
http://www.chabad.org/library/.....1.htm |
Thanks for the link.
you're right but I think that I'm also right:) that although they are fixed based on age and gender there is still a link to what people do (which is why the diff ages are diff values too)
Instead of relying just on memory, I'll have to look at it again properly.
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amother
Emerald
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Thu, Dec 08 2016, 8:21 am
| PinkFridge wrote: | Re erchin, one of my favorite divrei Torah: The parsha of erchin comes right after the tochacha because after the tochacha, we might feel hopeless and depressed. The parsha of erchin comes to teach us that everyone, just by virtue of being alive, has some value.
(Another of my favorite divrei Torah: The Apter Rav would find a remez to the mitzvah of v'ahavta lereiach camocha in every parsha. Someone asked him where in Balak does he see it? He said, "From its very name. It's an acronym: Veis for v'ahavta, lamed for lereiacha, and kuf for camocha." His chosid asked him the obvious question about the spelling. To which the Rav replied, "Ach. If you get bogged down by little details you'll never be able to do the mitzvah.") |
I love every part of this post!
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amother
Violet
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Thu, Dec 08 2016, 8:58 am
Values are different if for a neder or for damages. In both cases, men are worth more than women. There's no difference if a man is disabled, he's still worth more than a woman who is as strong as an ox.
The Torah could just as easily have determined that women are worth more than men because they have babies. It didn't.
Again, I don't walk around being depressed by this, I just don't ignore or whitewash it.
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eschaya
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Thu, Dec 08 2016, 9:30 am
I don't touch upon misogyny that is found in Torah She'bichsav because I'm afraid of the path my mind may travel, and the consequences therein.
However there is no denying that women are considered inferior, or of a lesser status, than men in Torah shebeal peh and all the commentaries who follow. It's irrelevant if you personally feel inferior (having learned the mefarshim or not) if it's written as such clearly. Yet I agree that there is no malice, no dislike, no hurtful intent whatsoever.
Think about a pet-lover you know. She probably loves her dog. Cherishes her dog. Guarantees to provide for and care for that much beloved pet. She will hurt if her dog is hurt, and mourn greatly upon its death. She will spend as much time with her dog as possible. She will wax poetic about her dog's loyalty, bravery, and other wonderful characteristics. She would probably run into a burning building to save her dog. And yet, if her dog were drowning at the same time that a child was drowing, she would of course (we hope, can't be too sure with some people today) save the child first. And she would not ask her dog to weigh in on big life decisions, or to help her solve complex problems. She will not bequeath her property to the dog in her will. Why? Well, because it's pretty obvious that the dog does not possess the same intellectual and emotional capacities as a human. The dog's life is not as valuable as a human life in spite of its wonderful characteristics and the great love and protectiveness the owner feels. It is not an equal relationship (nosein/mekabel anyone?). A dog cannot feel the same depths of emotion nor reach even close to the levels of human intellect. It will not be able to appreciate a glorious symphony, feel inspired by a beautiful shiur, or delight in an academic breakthrough. For us to recognize this is not to denigrate pets, or shame them, or label them inferior. It's more a matter of fact, and we can verbalize this with no shame, and still cherish them for the wonderful benefits they provide us. (And besides, no dog will ever read this and feel inferior)
Now I am NOT going to imply that the Torah compares women to animals. Not at all. (Especially since our relationship with animals nowadays is so different from how it was in the past). But to some extent, while being loved, cherished, and valued for the many lovely characteristics and practical benefits they bring to men, women were seen - until fairly recent history - as being more simple, almost childlike, with less capacity for intellectual and emotional depth as men. Some of this appeared to be borne out in reality, likely because women were never given the opportunities, or even provided the realization that we have most of the same innate cognitive abilities as men (if not the same, then at least equivalent). Thus women are not seen competent to be involved in legal matters or any decision making capacity. We were seen in terms of our practical physical capabilities (procreation, service to the men) and - like with children, servants, (and pets nowadays) - it was not a relationship of equals. Thus the idea that women gain eternal schar only insofar as we enable and help men (and men-children). There are mefarshim who explain how men are reflective of the heavenly sphere and the mind, whereas women are of the earth, practical and base.
Of course, any discussions regarding the lack of capacity among women in gemerah or later are not meant at all to denigrate women. It was a mere statement of fact. It's not like women were included in these discussions, nor was it ever considered that women could even have the abilities to learn of these discussions (save the very few exceptions like bruriah and rashi's daughters). I don't see any intentional degridation in the commentaries at all. Kind of like me pointing out to DH that there is no point in involving the kids in a discussion of our finances. They don't have the mental capabilities, nor the broad scope, nor the practical investment, and besides, kids are not "equal" to adults ij these matters.
These ideas used to hurt me terrible (I personally, would consider myself more of the mind, more intellectual than practical... I'm a poor homemaker and not terribly maternal, yet I thrive in my intellectually stimulating professional life), but once I came to accept that the mefarshim and rabbanim are influenced by the prevailing thoughts of their time (see an earlier post, this was deemed not apikorsus by an adam gadol), I have been able to let alot of the hurt and angst slide.
You can continue to put your head in the sand and say that that which has been clearly written does not exist. But it does. Yet I can reconcile a belief in Hashem and a belief in my integrity of mind as I do above, and thus live a happy, fulfilled life, with only mild damage to my spirituality. You can choose to create rainbows and unicorns and ignore the issue completely, and thus live a happy, fulfilled life. But the issue does exists.
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GreenEyes26
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Thu, Dec 08 2016, 9:49 am
| eschaya wrote: | I don't touch upon misogyny that is found in Torah She'bichsav because I'm afraid of the path my mind may travel, and the consequences therein.
However there is no denying that women are considered inferior, or of a lesser status, than men in Torah shebeal peh and all the commentaries who follow. It's irrelevant if you personally feel inferior (having learned the mefarshim or not) if it's written as such clearly. Yet I agree that there is no malice, no dislike, no hurtful intent whatsoever.
Think about a pet-lover you know. She probably loves her dog. Cherishes her dog. Guarantees to provide for and care for that much beloved pet. She will hurt if her dog is hurt, and mourn greatly upon its death. She will spend as much time with her dog as possible. She will wax poetic about her dog's loyalty, bravery, and other wonderful characteristics. She would probably run into a burning building to save her dog. And yet, if her dog were drowning at the same time that a child was drowing, she would of course (we hope, can't be too sure with some people today) save the child first. And she would not ask her dog to weigh in on big life decisions, or to help her solve complex problems. She will not bequeath her property to the dog in her will. Why? Well, because it's pretty obvious that the dog does not possess the same intellectual and emotional capacities as a human. The dog's life is not as valuable as a human life in spite of its wonderful characteristics and the great love and protectiveness the owner feels. It is not an equal relationship (nosein/mekabel anyone?). A dog cannot feel the same depths of emotion nor reach even close to the levels of human intellect. It will not be able to appreciate a glorious symphony, feel inspired by a beautiful shiur, or delight in an academic breakthrough. For us to recognize this is not to denigrate pets, or shame them, or label them inferior. It's more a matter of fact, and we can verbalize this with no shame, and still cherish them for the wonderful benefits they provide us. (And besides, no dog will ever read this and feel inferior)
Now I am NOT going to imply that the Torah compares women to animals. Not at all. (Especially since our relationship with animals nowadays is so different from how it was in the past). But to some extent, while being loved, cherished, and valued for the many lovely characteristics and practical benefits they bring to men, women were seen - until fairly recent history - as being more simple, almost childlike, with less capacity for intellectual and emotional depth as men. Some of this appeared to be borne out in reality, likely because women were never given the opportunities, or even provided the realization that we have most of the same innate cognitive abilities as men (if not the same, then at least equivalent). Thus women are not seen competent to be involved in legal matters or any decision making capacity. We were seen in terms of our practical physical capabilities (procreation, service to the men) and - like with children, servants, (and pets nowadays) - it was not a relationship of equals. Thus the idea that women gain eternal schar only insofar as we enable and help men (and men-children). There are mefarshim who explain how men are reflective of the heavenly sphere and the mind, whereas women are of the earth, practical and base.
Of course, any discussions regarding the lack of capacity among women in gemerah or later are not meant at all to denigrate women. It was a mere statement of fact. It's not like women were included in these discussions, nor was it ever considered that women could even have the abilities to learn of these discussions (save the very few exceptions like bruriah and rashi's daughters). I don't see any intentional degridation in the commentaries at all. Kind of like me pointing out to DH that there is no point in involving the kids in a discussion of our finances. They don't have the mental capabilities, nor the broad scope, nor the practical investment, and besides, kids are not "equal" to adults ij these matters.
These ideas used to hurt me terrible (I personally, would consider myself more of the mind, more intellectual than practical... I'm a poor homemaker and not terribly maternal, yet I thrive in my intellectually stimulating professional life), but once I came to accept that the mefarshim and rabbanim are influenced by the prevailing thoughts of their time (see an earlier post, this was deemed not apikorsus by an adam gadol), I have been able to let alot of the hurt and angst slide.
You can continue to put your head in the sand and say that that which has been clearly written does not exist. But it does. Yet I can reconcile a belief in Hashem and a belief in my integrity of mind as I do above, and thus live a happy, fulfilled life, with only mild damage to my spirituality. You can choose to create rainbows and unicorns and ignore the issue completely, and thus live a happy, fulfilled life. But the issue does exists. |
As always, amazing post!
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bigsis144
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Thu, Dec 08 2016, 11:15 am
I was just thinking about this thread last night when my first-grade son (local yeshivish community school) showed me his nightly reading assignment.
It's usually 3-4 sentences in Hebrew from Mishnayos somewhere, and my son doesn't just want to pronounce the words -- my husband or I (whoever's doing homework with him) usually roughly translates the passage and maybe gives some context. (ex. once it was talking about the halachic status of an egg laid on Shabbos, etc.)
But last night, the passage was
| Quote: |
אל תרבה שיחה עם האישה ואפילו היא אשתו. ואין צריך לומר באשת חברו. שכל זמן שאדם מרבה שיחה עם האישה גורם רעה לעצמו, ובוטל מדברי תורה, וסופו יורש גיהנם
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And yeah, I know that's from Pirkei Avos, and I learned a million apologetics about the real meaning of the word שיחה ("frivolous talk")... but it was so hard for me to translate that for my son without twisting the literal meaning of the words.
I was really, really uncomfortable, and I'm debating calling his Rebbe to ask that this particular passage be taken off the curriculum.
MAYBE if it was taught in some sort of context, or because they were going through all of Pirkei Avos and they can't just skip something...
But I'm deeply disturbed that this was plopped into my son's head when he is barely SEVEN years old.
*sigh*
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amother
Chocolate
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Thu, Dec 08 2016, 11:23 am
| eschaya wrote: | I don't touch upon misogyny that is found in Torah She'bichsav because I'm afraid of the path my mind may travel, and the consequences therein.
|
First of all, thank you for your eloquent and insightful posts. I really like the way you broke down these concepts.
About the above, how then do you live an Orthodox lifestyle while being intellectually honest? Purely by cognitive dissonance?
I was always afraid to let my mind go too far in this regard, and then I decided that it was ridiculous. Whether it's man made or divine or something else, I can't live my life based on it without at least being conscious as to what it really is. I let myself think about it for the first time without stopping at a certain point. And yes, it did lead me to certain unwanted conclusions... Which kind of leaves me at a loss right now.
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amother
Mistyrose
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Thu, Dec 08 2016, 2:44 pm
| amother wrote: | First of all, thank you for your eloquent and insightful posts. I really like the way you broke down these concepts.
About the above, how then do you live an Orthodox lifestyle while being intellectually honest? Purely by cognitive dissonance?
I was always afraid to let my mind go too far in this regard, and then I decided that it was ridiculous. Whether it's man made or divine or something else, I can't live my life based on it without at least being conscious as to what it really is. I let myself think about it for the first time without stopping at a certain point. And yes, it did lead me to certain unwanted conclusions... Which kind of leaves me at a loss right now. |
I am not the eloquent poster you quoted but have many similar thoughts and am truly enjoying some really insightful posts on this thread. I get by through a firm belief that Hashem is perfect, the Torah is perfect, and to borrow from mishnayos/Gemara- taiku (eliyahu hanavi will have to answer after the geula). I will choose to believe that Hashem knew what He was doing, created me in the gender I needed to be to fulfill my tafkid, and live my life to be a kiddish Hashem to the best of my ability.
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amother
Chocolate
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Thu, Dec 08 2016, 2:59 pm
| amother wrote: | | I am not the eloquent poster you quoted but have many similar thoughts and am truly enjoying some really insightful posts on this thread. I get by through a firm belief that Hashem is perfect, the Torah is perfect, and to borrow from mishnayos/Gemara- taiku (eliyahu hanavi will have to answer after the geula). I will choose to believe that Hashem knew what He was doing, created me in the gender I needed to be to fulfill my tafkid, and live my life to be a kiddish Hashem to the best of my ability. |
That's great - but my post was questioning the premises you believe in...
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amother
Aqua
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Thu, Dec 08 2016, 3:48 pm
| amother wrote: | First of all, thank you for your eloquent and insightful posts. I really like the way you broke down these concepts.
About the above, how then do you live an Orthodox lifestyle while being intellectually honest? Purely by cognitive dissonance?
I was always afraid to let my mind go too far in this regard, and then I decided that it was ridiculous. Whether it's man made or divine or something else, I can't live my life based on it without at least being conscious as to what it really is. I let myself think about it for the first time without stopping at a certain point. And yes, it did lead me to certain unwanted conclusions... Which kind of leaves me at a loss right now. |
Many of us don't go down that road because it is painful. I concluded long ago that the God Orthodox Jews believe in is not exactly the God I want to believe in because He is rather harsh, spiteful, and unfair. I decided that I want to stay in the Orthodox community so I don't think about it. When it comes up I shrug my shoulders and say oh well God is not trying to win a popularity contest. I advise you not to think too deeply if you want to stick around this community.
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amother
Chocolate
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Thu, Dec 08 2016, 4:07 pm
| amother wrote: | | Many of us don't go down that road because it is painful. I concluded long ago that the God Orthodox Jews believe in is not exactly the God I want to believe in because He is rather harsh, spiteful, and unfair. I decided that I want to stay in the Orthodox community so I don't think about it. When it comes up I shrug my shoulders and say oh well God is not trying to win a popularity contest. I advise you not to think too deeply if you want to stick around this community. |
I'm trying and for the most part succeeding, but it is uncomfortable to live like this... Especially during certain holidays and moments... I do want to stay but I don't want to live a life where my lifestyle is at odds with my intellect, and the fundamentals of it often go against my morals. For now though I sort of have shut off my brain.
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amother
Seafoam
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Thu, Dec 08 2016, 4:36 pm
| amother wrote: | | Many of us don't go down that road because it is painful. I concluded long ago that the God Orthodox Jews believe in is not exactly the God I want to believe in because He is rather harsh, spiteful, and unfair. I decided that I want to stay in the Orthodox community so I don't think about it. When it comes up I shrug my shoulders and say oh well God is not trying to win a popularity contest. I advise you not to think too deeply if you want to stick around this community. |
I've gone down that road and my conclusions aren't pretty. But I choose to focus on the aspects of orthodoxy that I like - the communal living, the chesed, lots of holidays and fun. I don't live in a strict community so I can do what I like. I don't mind shabbos or kosher and mikvah is only once a month. Eh.
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zaq
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Thu, Dec 08 2016, 5:10 pm
| amother wrote: |
Just for the record, in case of a milchemes mitzvah, everyone goes out to fight, even a bride from under the chuppah. (That's a Mishna.) | a bride? Or a chosson? Is there much of a history in Mishnaic times of women in the military?
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baschabad
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Thu, Dec 08 2016, 6:34 pm
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Could we please start a forum for all of us that are intellectually (at least) at a hard place in our observance due to these issues?
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amother
Chocolate
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Thu, Dec 08 2016, 6:48 pm
| baschabad wrote: | | Could we please start a forum for all of us that are intellectually (at least) at a hard place in our observance due to these issues? |
I would love that.
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sushilover
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Thu, Dec 08 2016, 9:28 pm
At first I was disgusted by the list of quotes on the blog and just couldn't read it.
Then I read through each carefully. And honestly, most of the mefarshim can be understood in a very benign ways.
Ex: The idea of women being cursed with being ruled over by her husband. It is the natural way of the world. Just as the curse of childbirth is the natural way. That doesn't mean that having an epidural or hypnosis etc, is wrong. Just as it doesn't mean that spouses treating each other as equals is wrong.
As for many other quotes, they seem to me to be simply stating the rules of nature (of course there are exceptions to every rule), not necessarily telling us this is the way we must live.
The only quote I cannot understand was the last one- but it's from the zohar, and I know that the zohar was never meant the be taken literally.
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