The real Torah view about women?!

eschaya

Thu, Dec 08 2016, 10:29 pm

amother wrote:

First of all, thank you for your eloquent and insightful posts. I really like the way you broke down these concepts.

About the above, how then do you live an Orthodox lifestyle while being intellectually honest? Purely by cognitive dissonance?

I was always afraid to let my mind go too far in this regard, and then I decided that it was ridiculous. Whether it's man made or divine or something else, I can't live my life based on it without at least being conscious as to what it really is. I let myself think about it for the first time without stopping at a certain point. And yes, it did lead me to certain unwanted conclusions... Which kind of leaves me at a loss right now.

So I don't know that I can provide any answers, but I do have a few comments.
First, I could decide to go through Torah Shebichsav, list all the issues, then attempt to find answers to each, some of which I may find acceptable and others likely not. For example, I have no problem with the fact that women are worth less on the slave market... gosh, if I had to purchase either myself (120 lb weakling) or my husband (6+ feet, 200 lbs, and a whole lot stronger) to work for me, I'd pay a lot more for him than someone like me. But still I choose not to focus on these questions and attempt to find answers, because I'm afraid there there may be some verses that I can't reconcile, and I don't want to be tortured by cognitive dissonance. And here's why
1) I believe in Hashem. Yes, I have questions and issues with some of the specifics (especially those relating to women), but deep in my heart of hearts I know there is a Creator. I am a science and nature person. When I'm in the wilderness, vast and untamed, I feel an inside stirring and undeniable knowledge that there is a Creator and a purpose. When I go stargazing, I see the darkest velvet sky, jet black and yet covered in every spot as far as my eye can detect by millions of stars, my heart drops out from inside me as I touch on the Infinite and I know that this universe was created by a Higher being. I work in healthcare, and I see on a daily basis how limited we humans are, how temporal is our life, and how miraculous the process of living is. So I can be angry at Hashem, or at least angry at how He has allowed Judaism to develop, but I cannot deny his existance because I feel it inside of me.
2) And then more practically. What if I did decide to put some of the statements in the Torah to the test, and find them lacking. You ask how I can continue to live an orthodox lifestyle. Well, what's my alternative? I have no strong desire to eat treif, or stop keeping shabbos. Yes, my life would become easier in some regards (no more pesach cleaning, wear whatever I want), but the losses would greatly outweigh the gains. I would probably lose my husband, my children, my community, many parts of my extended family... I look around at other lifestyles, and honestly, with all its flaws, I wouldn't want to raise my children any other way (I live OOT, in a JPF environment). There is so much beauty and meaning in our lifestyle. Do I wish I can shield my daughter from some of the misogyny and from elements of TH? Yes, I do. Perhaps she'll have more emunah peshutah than I do, and will not struggle. Or perhaps she will struggle, and then I hope we can be brave enough to have this conversation together one day. Do I worry that my sons will imbibe some of these attitudes and look down upon women? Not so much, because of the home and schools they are being raised in.
3) So I choose not to think about it. I have a full life in all other regards, and keep my mind occupied with other matters. Unfortunately, this does mean that I've had to distance myself from spirituality. I don't daven as I used to, I don't go to shiurim, and I have a harder time relating to yiddishkeit. It's a shame, yes, but its like amputating a limb to save a life. During the few months when I struggled with these issues the most, I could barely think of anything else. I lost weight. I was angry and sad all the time. I tried learning and researching in the hopes of finding actual answers, but each book, each lecture, each shiur, just deepened the problem. The conversation with R Asher Weiss in which he stated that it is not apikorsus for me to view statements of chazal and later mefarshim as products of their time lifted a huge weight from my heart. Yes, there is still the issue of the Torah itself, but I've been able to dissociate myself enough so that I don't need to worry about losing all faith.
4) The hardest part for me is TH because it draws along with it so many aspects of misogyny. For this reason I"m on a 3 month pill, so that I only deal with it 4x a year. For 8 weeks a year my marriage suffers and what little faith I have suffers even more. But there are another 44 weeks....
Sorry for the megilah. Just some thoughts from a confused and struggling Jew.

causemommysaid

Thu, Dec 08 2016, 10:33 pm

eschaya wrote:

Another amazing post!

GreenEyes26

Thu, Dec 08 2016, 11:07 pm

eschaya wrote:

I feel like you live in my brain (except for the TH part, that doesn't really bother me for some reason, I just don't really think about it...doing the halachic bare minimum helped, once I realize my kallah teacher was crazy and 75% of what she told me was chumra).

Amazing, amazing post!!

JoyInTheMorning

Fri, Dec 09 2016, 4:20 am

GreenEyes26 wrote:

With all due respect, this argument drives me crazy. I totally believe that you've never been made to feel inferior. Honestly, I have never either been openly discriminated against because of my gender in Judaism. But to say that on a basic, fundamental level, Orthodox (Chareidi) Judaism isn't completely misogynistic, is to ignore basic facts. You don't have to be heckled in the street to realize this.

Almost every Chareidi family member, community friend or person I've met has been wonderful. That doesn't mean the ideology they ascribe to isn't riddled with patriarchal holes.

I'm just starting this thread, so apologies if this has been addressed before. But I am shocked to hear you say that you have never been openly discriminated against because of your gender.

Did you never, while in high school, ask to learn Gemara and hear that you couldn't? Or ask questions and been told not to worry yourself about the answer, that it was too complex an issue to go into? Have you never been at a Shabbos meal where there was a discussion of the parasha or politics and you tried to contribute to the conversation and were basically ignored, or humored for a few minutes and then basically ignored?

How have you missed all these experiences?

(To be fair, the last type of experience, being ignored while trying to contribute to a serious conversation, happens plenty in the non-Orthodox world as well.)

shabbatiscoming

Fri, Dec 09 2016, 4:32 am

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

I am not the poster who you are replying to but I have to say that no, I never had any of those things happen to me. Never was I denied learning gemara, never was I told not to worry myself about a question, or that it was too complex to get into.
Never was I ignored at a table discussion or humored.

I feel very bad for you that that is the judaism that you live.

No way is that normal all across judaism or even frum judaism.

heidi

Fri, Dec 09 2016, 4:38 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Thank you for saying that!!! I've been trying to figure out how to express exactly this. I have never ever felt discriminated against as an Orthodox Jewish woman. I feel respected by my community. Any rav I have ever gone to has been polite and understanding, willing to explain his answers to my shaila until I was comfortable with them. I learn all the Torah I am willing to, taught by brilliant women and sometimes men (Matan). My husband loves me and I cover my hair and keep TH bcz. I believe it contributes to building a Torah home which I value immensely.
What am I missing here? Why are so many people so bitter?

shabbatiscoming

Fri, Dec 09 2016, 4:44 am

heidi wrote:

Well, you added on to my reply Wink

I dont love everything about judaism, but I never felt discriminated against. Ever. Do I love every mitzvah? No. I do things how I know will work for me. I know thats not right for everyone, but thats how it works for me. But again, discriminated against? Never ever.

JoyInTheMorning

Fri, Dec 09 2016, 4:45 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Shabbatiscoming, you are lucky that you grew up in a Modern Orthodox community. I did not, and I vividly remember my high school years, where I was denied the possibility of learning Gemara, but we were taught out of context that men's lives were worth more than women's lives.

But I am in a Modern Orthodox community now, and while certain things are much better, there is still discrimination. I don't know how you don't see it. It exists even in the non Jewish world, certainly in the corporate world, in universities. As I mentioned in a thread on politics a few weeks ago, in college, I had a logic teacher who was very open about his belief that most women could not do formal logic nearly as well as men. I had the extra burden of proving that I was an exception to his rule.

It's great that you have managed to live in a bubble where this doesn't exist. I can tell you that it does exist. It doesn't make me bitter. (This is addressed to heidi, not shabbatiscoming.) It does make me vigilant.

shabbatiscoming

Fri, Dec 09 2016, 4:50 am

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

Just as a sort of aside, I never learned gemara in high school (we did have a class where a teacher brought in photo copies of a gemara he wanted to teach us). My point was that I never felt like I was missing out because I never learned it. And my high school was not a modern orthodox one. It was more to the right but maybe we can call it just plain frum.

Can I ask, how were taught, out of context, that men's lives were worth more than women's? I cant even fathom that to girls that was taught?

And as you said you feel like discrimination is alive and well. It very well may be, but I never experienced it. And I do not think that that makes me as someone who lives in a bubble.

JoyInTheMorning

Fri, Dec 09 2016, 5:31 am

octopus wrote:

Who said women are equal to men? What is equal? What is equality exactly? This is by far a much bigger debate than what you are saying. Does any of this effect you on a day-to-day basis? I don't know anyone whose father forced them into marriage (which must not be outright in torah btw). Women inheriting is directly in torah with bnos tzlafchad. And on a practical level, I don't know ANYONE who excluded the girls from inheriting- most ppl follow american law. And as an aside, have you met an eldest boy that actually inherited pi shnayim? I haven't. As far as my testimony not being valid? Again, doesn't effect me on any basis ever. This doesn't effect my daily life. I don't know. It doesn't bother me.

The story of b'not tzlafchad presents a mitigation of a highly inequable inheritance law. It certainly does not imply that female children inherit equally with male children. Female children only inherit if there are no male children.

To me, the point of the story is much more in line with what Rabbi Nathan Lopes Cardozo says. There are many halachot in the Torah that don't jibe with what we would consider to be moral behavior. And yes, they can be fixed or altered. And Moshe showed the path forward. So there was a law of inheritance, and once it was taught, b'not tzlafchad asked about their current situation. Moshe saw their point and asked Hashem what to do in their situation, and Hashem told him that in such a situation, women could inherit.

You could argue that this hardly applies to our time because we can't just ask Hashem what to do when new situations arise (or when the unfairness of an existing situation becomes manifest). But I think this is much too limited a way too look at things. The lesson here is that when Moshe realized how unfair things were, he sought to remedy them by the method that was accessible to him, namely, by petitioning Hashem. My takeaway is that religious leaders should always do what what is in their power in order to remedy situations that disturb our sense of fairness. Thus, the reinterpretation by Chazal, as codified in the Talmud, of ayin tachat ayin (lex talionis) as monetary compensation for loss of limb. Thus, the recasting in early 20th Century of girls as capable of learning Torah, and the rise and encouragement of the Bais Yaakov movement. And thus, in today's times, rabbis who creatively come up with ways to allow women to participate in tefillah. There should be more, not less of this.

I wonder how much moaning and groaning there was when the law of b'not tzlafchad was first taught in the midbar.

etky

Fri, Dec 09 2016, 5:48 am

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

Well, there is some intimation of this when shevet Menashe approaches Moshe with the argument that if Tzelafhad's daughters married out of the tribe then their inheritance would be lost to the tribe - an argument that resulted in the addition of the caveat about them having to marry within the tribe. One can certainly picture the discussions (grumblings?) that preempted the consequent petition to Moshe.

JoyInTheMorning

Fri, Dec 09 2016, 5:50 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

You can ask, and I will answer, although even more people will be able to guess at my identity.

Someone taught dinim (halacha) to us in 9th grade. He had smicha, so presumably knew something, but certainly showed very poor judgment in choosing what to teach a bunch of ninth grade girls. I wish I could remember the exact subject matter we were learning in class, but all I can remember is that it wasn't brachos (because that came later in the year), or hilchos shabbos (because that was taught the next year by our wonderful assistant principal). Possibly it was the dinim of davening, and the question came up of why men say shelo asani isha and women say she'asani kirtzono, which would have provided some sort of context. He said that men's lives were worth more than women's lives because they did more mitzvos. And he taught the halacha from the mishna in Horayos, that if two people are drowning, a man and a woman, and you can only save one, that you save the man's life first because he does more mitzvos. [ETA: he did not tell us that the source was Horayos; he just said the halacha.]

This didn't sit too well with my thirteen-year-old self, but I immediately saw obvious ways of getting around it. What if the woman did a lot of mitzvos, and the man was a total rasha who did none? What if the woman was pregnant, so that there would be two lives to consider, rather than one? Etc. So I asked the questions. The teacher, who turned out to not be very well versed in the topic at all, said that the man's life still came first.

I came home and told my parents how upset I was by all this. They asked relatives more knowledgeable than they were, and got the sources in Gemara Horayos, which point out the exceptions that I had thought of, and more.

There is much more to this story, which perhaps I will share at a later time. But since you asked ...

(I'm guessing, from things that you have said in the past, that you had the good fortune to go to Bruriah. The family who run that school have great respect for the women in their family, and that is borne out by what those women have accomplished. But in a sense Bruriah was a bubble, compared to the general Orthodox world.)

Last edited by JoyInTheMorning on Fri, Dec 09 2016, 6:01 am; edited 1 time in total