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The real Torah view about women?!
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amother
Violet


 

Post Fri, Dec 09 2016, 6:25 am
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
The important issue, IMO, is whether Avraham did the right thing by going. You can read what Hashem says after the Akeidah as either praising Avraham for being willing to sacrifice his son, or a realization of Avraham's fundamental limitations at that point; despite the fact that he had rediscovered monotheism, he still did not fully understand Hashem's essential goodness, and he had still not moved far enough away from the mentality of a society that could invent a deity like the Molech.

There is a reason this was Avraham's last test, and the reason might be that he did not pass this one. (Yes, I know this does not accord with what Pirkei Avot says on this point.)


This is a very thoughtful approach. I agree philosophically. I just don't think it plays out practically.

Even if Avraham Avinu should have argued for Yitzchak, as he did for Sodom, the notion of obedience to Hashem stands. We'll do everything possible to avoid a genocide of Amalek, but if Eliyahu HaNavi shows up at the door one day and points to a family, what happens? I think I would try to avoid the situation, but at the end of the day, Hashem's direct word must win out.
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 09 2016, 6:44 am
amother wrote:
This is a very thoughtful approach. I agree philosophically. I just don't think it plays out practically.

Even if Avraham Avinu should have argued for Yitzchak, as he did for Sodom, the notion of obedience to Hashem stands. We'll do everything possible to avoid a genocide of Amalek, but if Eliyahu HaNavi shows up at the door one day and points to a family, what happens? I think I would try to avoid the situation, but at the end of the day, Hashem's direct word must win out.


Amother violet, the Torah points out to us very often that we can and should argue with Hashem, and that indeed, we can (so to speak) win the arguments. The most obvious example of this is Moshe's arguments on behalf of B'nei Yisrael when Hashem is threatening to exterminate them.

So even if we have Hashem's direct word, we can argue. Avraham could have argued.

But an important aspect of the story is that Avraham didn't just follow the word of Hashem. he went beyond that. After all, Hashem never tells Avraham to kill Yitzchak, he just tells him to bring him up. Avraham interpreted that as a commandment to kill Yitzchak, because in his mind, that's what bringing someone up to Hashem meant. Contrast that to Chana's approach, a millenium or so later, when she brings Shmuel up to Hashem by bringing him to Eli to be educated. (Note the same shoresh of "aleh" in "vata'alehu" of Shmuel I and "veha'alehu" of Vayeira.) Chana shows how "bringing up" can spiritually enrich rather than physically endanger a child.

A larger message is that there is always a more moral choice to be made, if we are brave enough to listen to the voices of good that lie within our consciences and creative enough to come up with new yet still Halachic solutions.
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octopus




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 09 2016, 8:04 am
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
The story of b'not tzlafchad presents a mitigation of a highly inequable inheritance law. It certainly does not imply that female children inherit equally with male children. Female children only inherit if there are no male children.

To me, the point of the story is much more in line with what Rabbi Nathan Lopes Cardozo says. There are many halachot in the Torah that don't jibe with what we would consider to be moral behavior. And yes, they can be fixed or altered. And Moshe showed the path forward. So there was a law of inheritance, and once it was taught, b'not tzlafchad asked about their current situation. Moshe saw their point and asked Hashem what to do in their situation, and Hashem told him that in such a situation, women could inherit.

You could argue that this hardly applies to our time because we can't just ask Hashem what to do when new situations arise (or when the unfairness of an existing situation becomes manifest). But I think this is much too limited a way too look at things. The lesson here is that when Moshe realized how unfair things were, he sought to remedy them by the method that was accessible to him, namely, by petitioning Hashem. My takeaway is that religious leaders should always do what what is in their power in order to remedy situations that disturb our sense of fairness. Thus, the reinterpretation by Chazal, as codified in the Talmud, of ayin tachat ayin (lex talionis) as monetary compensation for loss of limb. Thus, the recasting in early 20th Century of girls as capable of learning Torah, and the rise and encouragement of the Bais Yaakov movement. And thus, in today's times, rabbis who creatively come up with ways to allow women to participate in tefillah. There should be more, not less of this.

I wonder how much moaning and groaning there was when the law of b'not tzlafchad was first taught in the midbar.
]

But the reason that the torah gives for women not inheriting equally has nothing to do that women are "inferior", and has everything to do with all the nachalos (portions) not getting mixed up. And really, from a practical view point, how can anyone not agree??!!
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mommy3b2c




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 09 2016, 8:23 am
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
I'm just starting this thread, so apologies if this has been addressed before. But I am shocked to hear you say that you have never been openly discriminated against because of your gender.

Did you never, while in high school, ask to learn Gemara and hear that you couldn't? Or ask questions and been told not to worry yourself about the answer, that it was too complex an issue to go into? Have you never been at a Shabbos meal where there was a discussion of the parasha or politics and you tried to contribute to the conversation and were basically ignored, or humored for a few minutes and then basically ignored?

How have you missed all these experiences?

(To be fair, the last type of experience, being ignored while trying to contribute to a serious conversation, happens plenty in the non-Orthodox world as well.)


Nope. None of these things ever happened to me.
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amother
Chocolate


 

Post Fri, Dec 09 2016, 8:30 am
octopus wrote:
]

But the reason that the torah gives for women not inheriting equally has nothing to do that women are "inferior", and has everything to do with all the nachalos (portions) not getting mixed up. And really, from a practical view point, how can anyone not agree??!!


Well let's see - why are nachalos solely determined by the men? And whatever the answer is, why does that prevent women from inheriting money, livestock, etc.?
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 09 2016, 8:40 am
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
(I'm guessing, from things that you have said in the past, that you had the good fortune to go to Bruriah. The family who run that school have great respect for the women in their family, and that is borne out by what those women have accomplished. But in a sense Bruriah was a bubble, compared to the general Orthodox world.)
I did not go to bruriah. Just thought id put that out there.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 09 2016, 9:24 am
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
There are those (like Rabbi Riskin) who believe that Avraham did not pass the test; that indeed he should have argued with Hashem when He told him to sacrifice Yitzchak.


And I wonder, how do they daven on R"H when the akeidah, and the enduring zechus avos, is repeatedly evoked?
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 09 2016, 9:26 am
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
The story of b'not tzlafchad presents a mitigation of a highly inequable inheritance law. It certainly does not imply that female children inherit equally with male children. Female children only inherit if there are no male children.

To me, the point of the story is much more in line with what Rabbi Nathan Lopes Cardozo says. There are many halachot in the Torah that don't jibe with what we would consider to be moral behavior. And yes, they can be fixed or altered. And Moshe showed the path forward. So there was a law of inheritance, and once it was taught, b'not tzlafchad asked about their current situation. Moshe saw their point and asked Hashem what to do in their situation, and Hashem told him that in such a situation, women could inherit.

.


And this is why people are currently having such a problem with Rabbi Cardozo. Crying
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octopus




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 09 2016, 9:38 am
amother wrote:
Well let's see - why are nachalos solely determined by the men? And whatever the answer is, why does that prevent women from inheriting money, livestock, etc.?


We can get into a circular argument over this. Is it sexist that being jewish is solely determined by the woman?

Look, in some halachic cases it does seem that women get the short end of the stick. What comes to mind is the case of the aguna. However, there are halachic ways to get around this because the torah ALLOWS for halachic solutions. Many Rabbis won't marry a couple without a prenup. So I don't think your issue should be with the torah. I don't know halachos about inheriting actual land in e'y, but there is a kosher will that basically gives ppl their inheritance during a person's lifetime, which halachically bypasses the inheritance laws. If the torah was really denigrating to women (which it is not), it wouldn't allow for that.
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dimyona




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 09 2016, 10:08 am
amother wrote:
I would love that.


There are many women on here that would love to have a place to talk about their questions, but since this forum does not allow apikorsus, there is no intellectually honest way to approach them.
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amother
Brown


 

Post Fri, Dec 09 2016, 10:16 am
dimyona wrote:
There are many women on here that would love to have a place to talk about their questions, but since this forum does not allow apikorsus, there is no intellectually honest way to approach them.


It can be a closed moderated forum. Otherwise it will inevitably turn into a anti frum OTD proselytizing forum.Anyone who will not agree will be shouted and sneered down with they are in denial/don't want to deal with facts/don't want to change their lifestyle/don't want to learn/ are brainwashed etc.

Which is I why I ignore most imamother threads of these nature.
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amother
Copper


 

Post Fri, Dec 09 2016, 10:37 am
dimyona wrote:
There are many women on here that would love to have a place to talk about their questions, but since this forum does not allow apikorsus, there is no intellectually honest way to approach them.


I agree. I would also like such a forum but I am scared that it won't answer any questions, but rather turn me off even more.
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amother
Copper


 

Post Fri, Dec 09 2016, 10:49 am
octopus wrote:
We can get into a circular argument over this. Is it sexist that being jewish is solely determined by the woman?

Look, in some halachic cases it does seem that women get the short end of the stick. What comes to mind is the case of the aguna. However, there are halachic ways to get around this because the torah ALLOWS for halachic solutions. Many Rabbis won't marry a couple without a prenup. So I don't think your issue should be with the torah. I don't know halachos about inheriting actual land in e'y, but there is a kosher will that basically gives ppl their inheritance during a person's lifetime, which halachically bypasses the inheritance laws. If the torah was really denigrating to women (which it is not), it wouldn't allow for that.


Women get the short end of the stick, period. These are things that men would never be able to live through......

Menstrual cycles, Pregnancy, child labor.
Breastfeeding, having a life depend on you for sustenance.
Yet we go out to work and share the Ol of Parnassah.

Then the expectations of women to cook, clean, manage the house, raise the children, satisfy her husband's s-xual needs,(ye Onah and all, we are still expected to satisfy our men s-xually)feed, clothe and run everyone's life as smoothly as possible.

The fact that men can have children well into their 70's (let's not debate here if it's healthy or not) and age slower, while women have a much smaller shelf life and age quickly. The fact that a man at 50 can marry a woman at 30 while it doesn't go the other way around. So we are sort of second class to younger women once we reach a certain age. Sometimes I'm so angry about this.

And nowadays, all of this is expected of us, and we work!!!!. But it doesn't go the other way around. Yes of course many men help around the house and with childcare, but in general, it's still the woman's domain and expected of her.

I come from a home that was very respectful of women. But that doesn't help me not feel resentful. My husband tries to show me Chazal and sources how women are respected in Torah but it doesn't negate the rest.

I feel like in all ways, physically, emotionally, halachically, we got the short end of the stick.
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amother
Emerald


 

Post Fri, Dec 09 2016, 10:59 am
amother wrote:
I agree. I would also like such a forum but I am scared that it won't answer any questions, but rather turn me off even more.
[u]


I don't believe there are real answers that would genuinely satisfy you to many of the questions you have. I've always felt that orthodox Judaism involves a certain level of blind faith. There are many questions about equity, fairness, morality, that don't seem to jive with what we consider fair. Like our rabbi once said to me when I was insisting on answers to some of the obvious question....in this world there are no answers. In the next world there will be no questions. I realize an answer like this probably doesn't help.
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mommy3b2c




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 09 2016, 11:04 am
amother wrote:
Women get the short end of the stick, period. These are things that men would never be able to live through......

Menstrual cycles, Pregnancy, child labor.
Breastfeeding, having a life depend on you for sustenance.
Yet we go out to work and share the Ol of Parnassah.

Then the expectations of women to cook, clean, manage the house, raise the children, satisfy her husband's s-xual needs,(ye Onah and all, we are still expected to satisfy our men s-xually)feed, clothe and run everyone's life as smoothly as possible.

The fact that men can have children well into their 70's (let's not debate here if it's healthy or not) and age slower, while women have a much smaller shelf life and age quickly. The fact that a man at 50 can marry a woman at 30 while it doesn't go the other way around. So we are sort of second class to younger women once we reach a certain age. Sometimes I'm so angry about this.

And nowadays, all of this is expected of us, and we work!!!!. But it doesn't go the other way around. Yes of course many men help around the house and with childcare, but in general, it's still the woman's domain and expected of her.

I come from a home that was very respectful of women. But that doesn't help me not feel resentful. My husband tries to show me Chazal and sources how women are respected in Torah but it doesn't negate the rest.

I feel like in all ways, physically, emotionally, halachically, we got the short end of the stick.


Many of the things you wrote are problems with society, not the Torah. Women are not supposed to work. It's a shame that most of them do. G-d gave women the curse of child beating, and men the curse of parnassh. It's terrible that things are so twisted these days.
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chicco




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 09 2016, 11:40 am
amother wrote:
Women get the short end of the stick, period. These are things that men would never be able to live through......

Menstrual cycles, Pregnancy, child labor.
Breastfeeding, having a life depend on you for sustenance.
Yet we go out to work and share the Ol of Parnassah.

Then the expectations of women to cook, clean, manage the house, raise the children, satisfy her husband's s-xual needs,(ye Onah and all, we are still expected to satisfy our men s-xually)feed, clothe and run everyone's life as smoothly as possible.

The fact that men can have children well into their 70's (let's not debate here if it's healthy or not) and age slower, while women have a much smaller shelf life and age quickly. The fact that a man at 50 can marry a woman at 30 while it doesn't go the other way around. So we are sort of second class to younger women once we reach a certain age. Sometimes I'm so angry about this.

And nowadays, all of this is expected of us, and we work!!!!. But it doesn't go the other way around. Yes of course many men help around the house and with childcare, but in general, it's still the woman's domain and expected of her.

I come from a home that was very respectful of women. But that doesn't help me not feel resentful. My husband tries to show me Chazal and sources how women are respected in Torah but it doesn't negate the rest.

I feel like in all ways, physically, emotionally, halachically, we got the short end of the stick.


Not totally off topic, but since you mentioned it, a man who has a baby in his golden years, who does that work out for? I can't imagine that's helpful to him or his child. Thank Gd, Hashem designed it that women have kids when they should have the energy to raise them, and the kids have the parent available to them that they most need.

It is a shame that society has morphed into what it has, and a woman's role has been expanded so much, without seemingly "reward." If she has taken on so much, why shouldn't she get the "benefits" of manhood? I understand that argument, but I also do not believe the Torah supports them stretching themselves so thin, and taking on men's jobs. Think Devorah. She was totally capable of being a shofetes and was one, but that wasn't ideal. Not just because it reflected poorly on the men, or because she wasnt as qualified, but because she had other things to tend to, that for a woman are more important.

I wish women as a whole would realize their power, their strengths, their roles, and be celebrated for them, as is appropriate.
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 09 2016, 2:11 pm
mommy3b2c wrote:
G-d gave women the curse of child beating, and men the curse of parnassh. .


????
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dancingqueen




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 09 2016, 2:31 pm
chicco wrote:
Not totally off topic, but since you mentioned it, a man who has a baby in his golden years, who does that work out for? I can't imagine that's helpful to him or his child. Thank Gd, Hashem designed it that women have kids when they should have the energy to raise them, and the kids have the parent available to them that they most need.

It is a shame that society has morphed into what it has, and a woman's role has been expanded so much, without seemingly "reward." If she has taken on so much, why shouldn't she get the "benefits" of manhood? I understand that argument, but I also do not believe the Torah supports them stretching themselves so thin, and taking on men's jobs. Think Devorah. She was totally capable of being a shofetes and was one, but that wasn't ideal. Not just because it reflected poorly on the men, or because she wasnt as qualified, but because she had other things to tend to, that for a woman are more important.

I wish women as a whole would realize their power, their strengths, their roles, and be celebrated for them, as is appropriate.


I never heard that Devora's situation wasn't ideal. Certainly the peshat doesn't make it seem that way.
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mommy3b2c




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 09 2016, 2:35 pm
zaq wrote:
????


Lol. Child bearing.
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amother
Ecru


 

Post Sat, Dec 10 2016, 12:09 pm
There was an article on an understanding of the Torah view of women developed by Miriam Kosman in this week's Mishpacha.
The beginning is here: http://www.mishpacha.com/Brows.....illed
I've copied and pasted whatever was on the page:

iriam Kosman once received a call from a mother of a large family. “I love being a mother,” the woman hesitantly shared. “But I have a strong male side.”

"What is your strong male side?”

"I love to learn"

"Why is that a male side?” Mrs. Kosman countered. “Why isn’t that a human side? Why shouldn’t you love to learn; you have a brain and a neshamah!”

This wasn’t the first time the speaker had addressed the concern — and it wouldn’t be the last.

A long-time outreach presenter, Bnei Brak mother of a large crew, and Bar-Ilan University doctoral candidate, Miriam Kosman speaks annually to hundreds of religious and secular listeners about a range of Torah topics. As the years go by, she’s noticed a growing confusion about traditional gender roles.


“There’s a lot of mixed messaging out there,” Mrs. Kosman reports. “As they become more financially successful and educated, as they face the transition from intensive seminary or secular learning to managing large, young broods, many frum women start wondering: What is expected of me? What is the ideal I’m to be striving for?”


The conflicted feelings are what spurred Mrs. Kosman to pursue a decade of study on the topic, culminating recently with the publishing of her Circle, Arrow, Spiral: Exploring Gender in Judaism (Menucha Publishers) which includes haskamos from Rav Aharon Feldman, Rav Ahron Lopiansky, Rav Todros Miller, and Rabbi Avraham Edelstein. Scion of a renowned Torah family and wife of a prominent maggid shiur, she approaches the topic with a unique blend of mesorah, intellect, femininity, and creativity.


“In real life, the frum woman — as compared to women in any other society — probably has the best chance for a fulfilled life, good marriage, and a framework of meaning and purpose,” she contends. “But as women’s roles have expanded, they tend to define themselves less exclusively by their family life.”

In the past, society’s expectations of women jibed with the timbre of Chazal: woman as the homemaker, facilitator, caretaker. In contemporary times, however, these expectations no longer dovetail. To resolve the contradiction, chareidi society has generally responded with the “different-but-equal” assertion, contending that while men and women, do, indeed, have inherently different missions, each is equally significant.

But, asserts Mrs. Kosman, while different but equal may be true in the ultimate sense — in that a person is judged only based on his particular mission — there’s no getting away from the fact that there’s an intrinsic hierarchy in Judaism… and men are higher on that hierarchy.

“Men have more mitzvos, men give thanks for not being created women, men are the ones charged with Torah study, men are the poskim and leaders, parents are enjoined to pray for a ben zachar,” she offers in illustration. “Perhaps most tellingly, the pasuk tells us that after the cheit, ‘he will rule over you.’ That is definitely hierarchical.”

Mrs. Kosman notes that there are numerous ways of understanding these facts, many of them quite compelling. “But in the aggregate, it’s hard to maintain that we’re talking about a real equality here.”

The Open-Orthodox world, mimicking Reform and Conservative, has responded to this post-feminist conundrum with an apologetic tack: Judaism is indeed patriarchal, this is a big problem, we need to change as much as we can to modernize. That’s why, according to Mrs. Kosman, this sector is constantly pushing the envelope, often well beyond halachic bounds: women as rabbis, women as poskim, women as baalei tefillah. There’s an observable discomfort with what’s perceived as a flawed, chauvinistic system.

Miriam Kosman says her approach is entirely different — she is unquestioning of Chazal and doesn’t allege that the Divinely tailored, timeless system needs “adjustment” for modern times.

“As a maamin, I questioned from a very specific perspective: It’s Torah. It’s perfect, it’s just. How do we understand it?”

Mrs. Kosman’s thesis — laid out almost lyrically in her book — is clear and heavily sourced.



It posits that everything in this world is either female or male in nature. Masculinity is the arrow-like energy of achievement, progress, acquisition, and conquest. Femininity, by contrast, represents the internal force that takes pleasure in being rather than doing. Symbolized by the static circle, it is the receptive, concave force (nekeivah) that embraces relationship. Shabbos and tefillah, for example, are manifestations of the feminine force; in these endeavors, we stop doing, accomplishing, and progressing in order to enter into relationship.

Who is the ideal Jew? A spiral; a combination, Mrs. Kosman says. He understands that in this World he must do and do — but ultimately, it is all for one purpose: relationship with G-d.


On a practical level, men are charged with the “doing” sphere — they’re under a constant state of mitzvah obligation. Women, conversely, are obligated in most mitzvos, but their overriding task is to create deep, meaningful relationships — with their husbands, children, and most of all, G-d. All people, however, have aspects of both forces and need to express both. The most arrow-oriented person needs to rest on Shabbos, and the most circle-focused person has a responsibility to do the many mitzvos asei.

“From this perspective, being a man or a woman is not about roles; it’s about an overarching attitude toward life,” Miriam Kosman says.

“What if we prefer the male force?” many girls ask her. “Why can’t we choose the path that speaks to us most?”

This is a common point of contention in both directions. After giving a recent talk, for example, Mrs. Kosman met a father who poured out his angst.

“My wife is a doctor, I am a nurse,” he began. He was a natural nurturer: He preferred staying home with the kids. At shul board meetings, he found it frustrating that members were always talking about how to generate more money; he was concerned about the kind of welcome newcomers would receive. His first wife pressured him endlessly to make decisions, take charge, earn more money. When they eventually divorced, he got custody.

“My whole life, I feel like I’m fighting to be allowed to be this way,” he shared. Was he obligated to repress his feminine nature?

No, Mrs. Kosman replied, unequivocally — that’s why this wider paradigm is liberating. There is no such thing as a purebred male or female; in fact, many men are far more feminine than many women. And in day-to-day life there’s tremendous room for fluidity. At the same time, the physical world reflects the spiritual world: the body you were put into is the medium with which your neshamah interacts with this world.


“Many women are not born with well-developed femininity, and the inverse is true too,” she asserts. “You’re charged with cultivating and incorporating these traits into your life on some level. It takes real work.”

Are certain occupations inherently gender-specific?

“Not necessarily. It’s not about what you do; it’s how you do it,” Mrs. Kosman contends. “Almost any task can be approached from either a circle or arrow perspective.”
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