S/o feeding in to communal norms

amother

Ruby

Tue, Dec 27 2016, 9:05 pm

This has probably been discussed but with all the other threads on related topics figured I would throw this one in as well. Sorry in advance that it is so long Wink

I'm not sure how to phrase this but I've been thinking about what is our responsibility as the so called orthodox Jewish middle class/ regular people. B"h we have savings and paying our bills isn't keep us up at night but I think we come across as pretty regular.

My daughter mentioned that she wants to have a birthday party, she said all her friends are having one. Now that the truth is that they make a party in school for each kids birthday but most of her friends did also have a party at home. Her birthday is not for a while but I feel like it puts a pressure on those parents who either can't are don't want to that now they have to also. If one parent wants to, it's fine but when it becomes the new norm....

I try to walk that very thin line of not letting my child be the "karban" for my views while not become part of everyone does it making other kids feel lacking but it's a very thin line. I obviously try to err on the side of not making my daughter a karban since understandably she's my first priority but I can't help thinking about it.

For example in camp they went on a trip and were told that they could bring money for arcades. I e-mailed a friend to see if she was sending money with her daughter and she said no so I didn't also but I told my daughter in advance that I checked first because I wouldn't want her to be the only one who didn't bring money.

When wealthy people spend on things it doesn't actually bother me because they are clearly in a different league.There are certain people that everyone views as wealthy and we aren't them Wink

It's life as someone who doesn't come across as in a different league that I sometimes ponder.

I'm leaving aside the not spoiling aspect because that's really not what I contemplating now.
nor am I talking about how people need to learn to not be jealous, as parents we address that with our own children but do we have any responsibility at all in terms of other people?

curious people's thoughts.

seeker

Tue, Dec 27 2016, 10:48 pm

Thank you for taking responsibility for the impact your actions have on the community!

I do think you should aim not set standards, but you don't necessarily have to be the one to break the standards that others are setting either. Maybe you can look for an average to aim for. It's true that when everyone makes parties it puts a pressure on the parents who weren't intending to, but if it's something your DD cares about and it's true that "most" people did make parties, then she doesn't have to be the one to get left out.

I think even if you don't do things actionably different, just raising awareness and thoughtfulness in this area is a big step. Help your kids appreciate what they have and that they're lucky to have it, so that when they do have their nice things and are together with others, they will be the ones who are equally nice to everyone and don't look down on people who are different. I think that's the most important piece of all, because no matter where the standard is set there will be people stuck below it. And from the people who do have the nicer things, there are those who are more full of it and those who are so normal that you barely even have to notice that what they're wearing costs more than your house.

seeker

Wed, Dec 28 2016, 1:36 am

tichellady wrote:

Since when is having a birthday party at home outside of communal norms? Am I missing something?

Where I come from, it's a special occasion, not something everyone does. If everyone did it it would be quite a pressure on me. I have enough to deal with with normal day to day life and occasions without worrying about entertaining a bunch of kids. Plus then you get into issues of you can't invite half the class because people will feel left out, but not everyone has the space and means to host 30 kids.

So far DD has only been invited to a couple of birthday parties, one of which was hosted by a family that is clearly on a different level than us and we're all fine with that, DD went through a temporary fantasy of having one like that too but we got used to the idea that we had a great time enjoying someone else's party but it's not something everyone does, we're lucky that we had friends to celebrate with.

When I was a kid and started wanting a big birthday party, my mother told me I could have one but only one, besides my bas mitzvah. So I'd have to decide which year I wanted it and then accept that once I "used" my birthday party that would be it. I remember being happy with that arrangement and got invited to a similar frequency of parties by other kids.

So far for my kids we do a low-key celebration with a fancy sugary-binge cake (homemade and designed to order) with us and a handful of extended family members (we don't have many locally) either at home or at a grandparent's house. If there comes a time when it's a Thing to have birthday parties, I may need to recalculate but I sure hope that doesn't happen - we live in a pretty low-maintenance neighborhood and if/when we move I'd aim for the same, so I'm not too concerned.

saw50st8

Wed, Dec 28 2016, 7:33 am

I think birthday party culture is more the norm in places where people have houses and backyards where it's easy to host and not too expensive. People in my area (and where I grew up) all had birthday parties, some low key, some fancy. Growing up, my birthday parties tended to be sleepovers - we had a few friends, cake, some junk food and watched a movie. Lots of fun and low cost!

seeker

Wed, Dec 28 2016, 10:49 am

saw50st8 wrote:

That explains a lot!

Over here, first of all about half or more of the kids live in squishy apartments. So a party means either lots of kids left out or finding a venue. Also, some entertainment is expected - a few friends and a movie doesn't really do it, especially since the schools strongly discourage movies. So you need a craft or something. And once some of the kids do something really fancy, it may actually be easier to say "birthday parties are not our thing" rather than have a "nerdy" birthday party.

seeker

Wed, Dec 28 2016, 12:21 pm

The problem is that if people have parties that involve a significant number of kids from school but not the whole class, it opens the door to all kinds of bad feelings, as well as the occasional politics and bullying. If you're just inviting one or two best friends out of a class of 30, and the other kids are cousins or neighbors, and you're just doing nosh at home, that's reasonable. But once you have more than 5 kids from school it's going to potentially become a Thing.

mummiedearest

Wed, Dec 28 2016, 12:22 pm

seeker wrote:

you can invite up to half the class without it becoming a Thing. people worry too much.

seeker

Wed, Dec 28 2016, 12:26 pm

This is not a worry, this is I've been both a kid and a teacher and have seen what goes on in schools. They start talking over lunch or recess about the birthday party and who's coming. The kids not on the invite list start feeling uncomfortable. Then it turns into "If you don't blah blah then I'm not inviting you to my party" and then "I'm not really interested in her but I'm going to suck up to her and make her one of the few kids I'm able to invite to my party because it sounds like her party is going to be spectacular (and kids without spectacular parties end up left out more)" This is not paranoia, this is what I have seen and heard in schools and it makes me really understand why some schools prefer to stop it before it starts by having an "all or nothing" party policy.

SixOfWands

Wed, Dec 28 2016, 12:26 pm

tichellady wrote:

Wow I guess things are different in different places. I always had a birthday party and didn't think of it as a luxury at all,.I come from a big family and we all had birthday parties. I think all my friends did as well. I don't think these were expensive productions, and I didn't necessarily invite my whole class.

We always had birthday parties growing up. My kids always had birthday parties, some more elaborate than others. Sometimes there was a craft. Sometimes games, or movies. Spring or summer parties tend to be in the park. As they got older, it was sleepovers, with bodies strewn on every horizontal surface we have. I don't consider them a luxury at all.

mummiedearest

Wed, Dec 28 2016, 3:45 pm

seeker wrote:

I get that. they do this talking when it's five kids too. kids do need to learn to accept disappointment, and I think this concept of never making others feel bad actually feeds into the "my child must have all the popular things" attitude that has been adopted by the community at large. kids need to be taught to be respectful of others' feelings and not talk about their parties around kids who aren't invited. that doesn't mean they shouldn't make the parties for some kids and not invite everyone.

MagentaYenta

Wed, Dec 28 2016, 3:57 pm

amother wrote:

ok leaving the birthday party thing alone- my question is really do people think about if they will be raising the bar for other people or does that not even come in to your mind- it could be how fancy your bar mitzvah is or whatever you want to fill in.

I once went to a bar mitzvah where Michael Jackson performed. The parents were the worst kind of nouveau riche. The father was quite pleased that no one at his childs school or in their very wealthy community could top it. I also went to a bar mitzvah of a family who could have bought and sold this guy ten times over. It was amazingly low key, even though there were about 200 guests and an incredible occasion for the family and extended family.