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Forum -> Judaism -> Halachic Questions and Discussions
How far can you go without having a halachik affair?
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amother
Turquoise


 

Post Tue, Jan 17 2017, 10:13 am
A friend has been secularly divorced for a long time but is still waiting on her get. He is not a refuser, but it's just taking a while.

In the meantime, she has met a man she likes very much and she asked me exactly how far she can go without being an eshes ish according to halacha. She is obviously not going to ask a rav and I have no idea.

Anyone know this answer? Such a weird question, but maybe someone knows.
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tichellady




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 17 2017, 10:15 am
I don't understand the question. Is it at what point is she considered an adulteress?
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amother
Turquoise


 

Post Tue, Jan 17 2017, 10:17 am
yes.
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grace413




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 17 2017, 10:19 am
Can't answer the actual question but tell her it's not worth it to take any chances.

Let her wait for the get even if it is difficult. Men are strange creatures - any rumors reaching the ears of almost xdh might make him change his mind. Even rumors of her being alone with another man can get her messed up.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 17 2017, 10:19 am
I am not a rabbi, but I suggest she stay shomer negiah until she has the get. Anything else is just looking for trouble.

I understand things can take time, but if she's ready to move on with someone else, then she needs to put her energy into getting the get resolved ASAP.
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imasinger




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 17 2017, 10:20 am
I know firsthand how hard it is to wait, but if she plans to be shomer negia, she should wait till she is remarried, no?
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sourstix




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 17 2017, 10:23 am
I second what grace and frantic said. She probably should have waited till she got her get to date someone. Maybe she just met him by chance. Whatever the story, hopefully she will control herself for everything in life is about patience.
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amother
Turquoise


 

Post Tue, Jan 17 2017, 10:26 am
I know that being shomer is the best thing and she knows it too. But from what I understand that ship has sailed Sad so now she asked this question. I'm sure there's some defined halachik category I just don't know what it is.
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imasinger




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 17 2017, 10:29 am
Is she looking to find out whether she already committed an aveira, or is she looking for permission?
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amother
Turquoise


 

Post Tue, Jan 17 2017, 10:32 am
imasinger wrote:
Is she looking to find out whether she already committed an aveira, or is she looking for permission?


Not 100% sure. Maybe both. What she said is that they have gone almost the whole way and he told her they might as well finish since they've done this much, but she doesn't know what to do. So I guess it's both because if she's already an adultress, she will go all the way. Otherwise maybe she will hang on.
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amother
Black


 

Post Tue, Jan 17 2017, 10:33 am
amother wrote:
I know that being shomer is the best thing and she knows it too. But from what I understand that ship has sailed Sad so now she asked this question. I'm sure there's some defined halachik category I just don't know what it is.


It may not be "right", but isnt anything short of penetration, not in the category of actual relations?
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grace413




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 17 2017, 10:38 am
amother wrote:
Not 100% sure. Maybe both. What she said is that they have gone almost the whole way and he told her they might as well finish since they've done this much, but she doesn't know what to do. So I guess it's both because if she's already an adultress, she will go all the way. Otherwise maybe she will hang on.


What a guy. He is pressuring her. I think it's not actually adultery if tab a hasn't been inserted into slot b. But I don't like this guy from what you've said here.
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tichellady




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 17 2017, 10:45 am
I think there is the legal question of "at what point is she not allowed to return to her husband" according to a beit din composed of human judges but there is also a concept of sinning according to the beit din of Heaven, in which case witnesses and warnings are not relevant. I think vgnl penetration is considered adultery in the legal sense but I also think that if the husband doesn't know/doesn't believe her then they don't necessarily have to get divorced. I assume that regardless it's considered adultery in the court of Heaven. Other things may also be considered adultery in the court of Heaven
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trixx




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 17 2017, 10:49 am
amother wrote:
Not 100% sure. Maybe both. What she said is that they have gone almost the whole way and he told her they might as well finish since they've done this much, but she doesn't know what to do. So I guess it's both because if she's already an adultress, she will go all the way. Otherwise maybe she will hang on.


tell her he is a tool, he is using her and not to be surprised if he dumps her after he gets what he wants. why buy the cow when you can get the milk free Rolling Eyes if he respected her as a human being let alone woman let alone woman in this specific situation, he wouldn't be pressuring her.

remember he walks away scot-free regardless. she is the one left with the mess.
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Miri7




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 17 2017, 10:58 am
Tell her to lose this guy. Pressuring her to go all the way is wrong and an indication of poor character on a few levels.
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amother
Turquoise


 

Post Tue, Jan 17 2017, 10:59 am
trixx wrote:
tell her he is a tool, he is using her and not to be surprised if he dumps her after he gets what he wants. why buy the cow when you can get the milk free Rolling Eyes if he respected her as a human being let alone woman let alone woman in this specific situation, he wouldn't be pressuring her.

remember he walks away scot-free regardless. she is the one left with the mess.


I don't think she is innocent and I think she enjoyed it all as much as he did. He just wants to go all the way, but he is respecting her wishes not to, but she wonders if she should or shouldn't. She said to me, why not maybe he is right.

I will tell her no penetration.
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imasinger




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 17 2017, 11:05 am
Tell her that "everything but" isn't right, either.

Just because she already did more than she should doesn't mean that she shouldn't stop now.

If he's really a mensch, he'll back off and still be there for her.

If he doesn't do that, she might want to consider this a rebound relationship and learning experience, and move on.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 17 2017, 11:07 am
amother wrote:
Not 100% sure. Maybe both. What she said is that they have gone almost the whole way and he told her they might as well finish since they've done this much, but she doesn't know what to do. So I guess it's both because if she's already an adultress, she will go all the way. Otherwise maybe she will hang on.


The bolded is key here. When in doubt, DON'T. The fact that she's ambivalent says that she knows she has unfinished business, and is not ready to take the next step. Her body, and her need to feel loved, are saying "Yes", but her brain is saying "Wait a minute... don't you need to handle something important first? Is this what you REALLY want?"

She needs to listen to her brain.

(And totally beside the point, if news gets back to her ex, he can certainly make things difficult for her. The most amicable ex can turn ugly if he feels threatened by another man's presence. "I don't want her, but nobody else can have her either.")
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amother
Turquoise


 

Post Tue, Jan 17 2017, 11:07 am
imasinger wrote:
Tell her that "everything but" isn't right, either.

Just because she already did more than she should doesn't mean that she shouldn't stop now.

If he's really a mensch, he'll back off and still be there for her.

If he doesn't do that, she might want to consider this a rebound relationship and learning experience, and move on.


of course he will be there for her. she's not a passive participant in this "affair" - it's not something being done to her. They haven't done penetration afaik, so that's good.
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Chocoholic




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 17 2017, 11:11 am
Sounds like he's just looking to get some easy zex. Don't.

Run for the hills
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