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Superstitions, s/o Bizarre Rules



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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 17 2017, 10:12 am
I learned that as Jewish people, we are not supposed to be superstitious, but rather to have emunah and bitachon. Everything that happens to us is for the good, because Hashem wants only the best for us. (Breslov)

Still, there is the Zohar, Shulchan Aruch, the Rambam, and many other respected sources that have all kinds of suggestions, warnings, segulahs, things to ward off the evil eye, bring parnossah, prevent disabled children, etc.

The vast majority of these are completely anti science, and make no sense to anyone who uses logic and reasoning. Has anyone really stopped growing because someone stepped over them? What if you're having relations, and instead of thinking about a holy rabbi, your mind drifts and you think of George Clooney? Fingernails are always growing, regardless of what day you cut them on. I seriously doubt that anyone ever miscarried or forgot all their Torah learning just because they stepped on a toenail clipping.

A lot of superstitions come from non Jewish sources, too. We picked them up from living in the diaspora. That alone makes it very problematic.

So, how do we draw the line between minhag, superstition, our holy rabbis, and common sense? Rational Judaism, how does it work??? Scratching Head

(BTW, I keep some of these things for the sake of DH and Shalom Bayis, but I don't pretend to understand it. DH says "better safe than sorry".)
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trixx




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 17 2017, 10:35 am
FranticFrummie wrote:
I learned that as Jewish people, we are not supposed to be superstitious, but rather to have emunah and bitachon. Everything that happens to us is for the good, because Hashem wants only the best for us. (Breslov)

Still, there is the Zohar, Shulchan Aruch, the Rambam, and many other respected sources that have all kinds of suggestions, warnings, segulahs, things to ward off the evil eye, bring parnossah, prevent disabled children, etc.

The vast majority of these are completely anti science, and make no sense to anyone who uses logic and reasoning. Has anyone really stopped growing because someone stepped over them? What if you're having relations, and instead of thinking about a holy rabbi, your mind drifts and you think of George Clooney? Fingernails are always growing, regardless of what day you cut them on. I seriously doubt that anyone ever miscarried or forgot all their Torah learning just because they stepped on a toenail clipping.

A lot of superstitions come from non Jewish sources, too. We picked them up from living in the diaspora. That alone makes it very problematic.

So, how do we draw the line between minhag, superstition, our holy rabbis, and common sense? Rational Judaism, how does it work??? Scratching Head

(BTW, I keep some of these things for the sake of DH and Shalom Bayis, but I don't pretend to understand it. DH says "better safe than sorry".)


this is kabbalah
also shulchan aruch says "what is a chossid" - someone who burns his fingernails
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amother
Aquamarine


 

Post Tue, Jan 17 2017, 10:37 am
trixx wrote:
this is kabbalah
also shulchan aruch says "what is a chossid" - someone who burns his fingernails


Kabbalah is very controversial. Many rabbis reject it or many of its premises.

As I wrote in the Bizarre Rules thread, I grew up with all this weirdness and thought Judaism was incredibly superstitious. I rejected all this nonsense and practice rationalist Judaism based on the Rambam, who rejects these things.
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 17 2017, 12:15 pm
FranticFrummie wrote:
Still, there is the Zohar, Shulchan Aruch, the Rambam, and many other respected sources that have all kinds of suggestions, warnings, segulahs, things to ward off the evil eye, bring parnossah, prevent disabled children, etc.

Rambam?
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Iymnok




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 17 2017, 1:23 pm
There is a series on torahanytime.com by Rav Yosef Veiner called "Parameters of Chukoseyhem Lo Solechu"
The positive commandment of not going in the ways of the nations. He answers a bunch of these questions. Since the series is presently ongoing, you can send in your questions to be discussed.
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lora




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 17 2017, 2:12 pm
firstly, you listed a few examples, one which is stepping over people will make them stop growing, that for example I couldn't find a source for in fact I know someone who makes his kids do it on purpose just to prove its not based on anything. but then you mentioned nail clippings and I can add so many other things to the list, that can result in forgetting learning (putting on clothing backwards, taking off more than one article of clothing at a time, eating hear, eating olives without oil, eating end of loaf...) these are all mentioned in the kitzer shilchun urich or other realiable sources that we cant argue with, my take is that anything that has a good source is not superstitious but rather a chuk- something were not at the level of understanding.
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greenfire




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 17 2017, 2:16 pm
I hear you, I feel you

imagine if a dead person gets up & cuts his nails & pours water over himself ... now we can't cut our nails in order so we skip & we cannot pour backwards ~ BOO !!!
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tichellady




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 17 2017, 2:28 pm
lora wrote:
firstly, you listed a few examples, one which is stepping over people will make them stop growing, that for example I couldn't find a source for in fact I know someone who makes his kids do it on purpose just to prove its not based on anything. but then you mentioned nail clippings and I can add so many other things to the list, that can result in forgetting learning (putting on clothing backwards, taking off more than one article of clothing at a time, eating hear, eating olives without oil, eating end of loaf...) these are all mentioned in the kitzer shilchun urich or other realiable sources that we cant argue with, my take is that anything that has a good source is not superstitious but rather a chuk- something were not at the level of understanding.


As for as I know a chok is only for Torah law, not customs or rabbinic rulings
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amother
Aquamarine


 

Post Tue, Jan 17 2017, 2:30 pm
lora wrote:
firstly, you listed a few examples, one which is stepping over people will make them stop growing, that for example I couldn't find a source for in fact I know someone who makes his kids do it on purpose just to prove its not based on anything. but then you mentioned nail clippings and I can add so many other things to the list, that can result in forgetting learning (putting on clothing backwards, taking off more than one article of clothing at a time, eating hear, eating olives without oil, eating end of loaf...) these are all mentioned in the kitzer shilchun urich or other realiable sources that we cant argue with, my take is that anything that has a good source is not superstitious but rather a chuk- something were not at the level of understanding.


My take is that we can accept that every single person is a product of their time, and in ancient times society attributed superstitious meaning to things which are now explained or refuted by science.

We don't have to attribute God like attributes to any human, no matter how great they are.
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amother
Amber


 

Post Tue, Jan 17 2017, 2:36 pm
I can't stand the superstitions. It only adds to my skepticism.
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mummiedearest




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 17 2017, 2:38 pm
lora wrote:
firstly, you listed a few examples, one which is stepping over people will make them stop growing, that for example I couldn't find a source for in fact I know someone who makes his kids do it on purpose just to prove its not based on anything. but then you mentioned nail clippings and I can add so many other things to the list, that can result in forgetting learning (putting on clothing backwards, taking off more than one article of clothing at a time, eating hear, eating olives without oil, eating end of loaf...) these are all mentioned in the kitzer shilchun urich or other realiable sources that we cant argue with, my take is that anything that has a good source is not superstitious but rather a chuk- something were not at the level of understanding.


there are many things in the Kitzur that we don't follow. those things are not chukim.
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MagentaYenta




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 17 2017, 2:39 pm
amother wrote:
I can't stand the superstitions. It only adds to my skepticism.


Here here!! I do agree with you.
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amother
Amber


 

Post Tue, Jan 17 2017, 2:46 pm
MagentaYenta wrote:
Here here!! I do agree with you.


My rabbis where I'm from were not like this. When I got married is when I started to hear all the deep superstitions and my husband believes them or at least doesn't even want to entertain the idea that they might not be true.
When I became religious I thought that questions were welcomed in Judaism.
How wrong I was.
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seeker




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 17 2017, 3:19 pm
Here are some ways to understand these things, and often it's different reasons for different customs:

1. These beliefs were so common in their times that they were as if the science of that era. Just as a rabbi in today's age might give recommendations or even halachic rulings based on current scientific understanding, rabbis in ancient times likely did so as well.

2. The rabbis used certain expressions figuratively that we are mistakenly reading literally. For example, it is likely that the term "kashe lishicha" (makes you forget things?) may have been an idiomatic expression for "don't do that."

3. Similarly, rather than just idiomatically, rabbis may have given dire warnings as an effort to promote certain practices if they were important and people weren't taking them seriously.

4. Yes, some things were just picked up from the diaspora and are quite un-Jewish. You may be hard-pressed to find legitimate sources promoting these.

5. The authenticity of the Zohar and other sources of these types of practices have been strongly questioned. I don't want to go into detail here and risk starting an imamother drama.
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 17 2017, 4:27 pm
I have heard most of these superstitions among non-Jews (specifically, non-Jewish Russians).

There is absolutely nothing "holy" in superstitions we picked up from surrounding populations.
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Hatemywig




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 19 2017, 10:35 am
We all have free will to choose what we are going to do and how to keep The Torah and its Mitzvos.

I personally choose to follow the Shulchan Aruch. I agree, there are some things written in the Shulchan Aruch that have no connection to the way things are done in 2017, this is the reason I also have chosen a Rabbi to ask regarding questions that arise. For this very reason, there are Rabbis who are writing new Sefarim with modern-day Halachik issues.

The bottom line is, as it always is with anything to do with Judaism - it's about belief!
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cbsp




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 22 2017, 8:30 pm
Iymnok wrote:
There is a series on torahanytime.com by Rav Yosef Veiner called "Parameters of Chukoseyhem Lo Solechu"
The positive commandment of not going in the ways of the nations. He answers a bunch of these questions. Since the series is presently ongoing, you can send in your questions to be discussed.


I second this recommendation.

Rabbi Viener's shiurim are on his website as well:

http://www.torahstream.org/#/t....._5777

His contact info is at the bottom of the "About" page and he is usually very responsive to emails.
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